# Pro-Choicers: What makes a person? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034 "2009-08-28T15:36:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/41 "2009-08-28T22:29:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > **YogSoth’s** POV seems to be the fetus is a parasite and as such lives or dies at the whim of the mother (caretaker) right up to the instant before the umbilical cord is cut. > > Thing is after the umbilical is cut the baby’s needs increase from when it was in the mother. It requires active effort on the part of caretakers to live. It requires more resource outlays for its survival (clothes at the least). Its status as a parasite continues minus the physical connection to the mother after birth. > > So, if it is a parasite its caretakers should have the choice of life or death over it by his logic. This is my POV, somewhat, but I don’t agree with your conclusion. The fetus is a parasite and until it is viable the mother should be able to choose to eject it from her body. Once it is viable and no longer needs to be attached to the mother to survive, I’m against termination. Viability is difficult to define - 23 weekers have survived on rare occasions, and in my mind there’s a question mark over whether a very prem baby can be called viable if it’s early birth is likely to result in moderate to severe health problems and disabilities. That’s something that would need to be hashed out after a lot more research than I’m prepared to do this morning. A parasite is something that will die without being attached to a host. A newborn is not attached to a host and can be passed from one carer to another without difficulty. Therefore, I do not believe that even a helpless newborn can be called a parasite, they are simply a dependant. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/42 "2009-08-28T22:45:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I can neither hunt, nor farm. I can only survive because other people do these things for me. Does that mean I’m not a person? You have the capability of learning if you really have to. I love steak, but I don’t know how to kill a cow. If I’m stranded on an island only with cows, I’ll try my best to figure it out. If I’m 3, I’ll cry till I’m dead. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/43 "2009-08-28T22:46:55Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Ha! Begbert2, I love your posts. > > For me, it’s about survival status. Here’s how I break it down: > > Embryo, Zygote, fetus-- anything in the womb is clearly not a person. It won’t survive at it’s present state if removed. > > Babies - ALSO not people. They are not capable of making decisions providing care for themselves. They need a grown person to provide. > > I can only consider beings capable of surviving on their own as people. Not necessarily in a society sense. I don’t care how much their money earning potential is. 🙂 > > And no, souls don’t exist just because you want them to. Thanks! Though, I disagree that survival status is a valid way of defining personhood, largely because my survival status is dependent on the environment just as much as a zygote’s. If you tear me away from my Walmarts and my bank accounts and my refridgerator and my water faucets, I’ll be aborted within a week. Since I’m a little leery of any definition of personhood which excludes myself, I’ll stick with the one based on brain activity. I’m _fairly_ sure I have brain activity… ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/44 "2009-08-28T22:46:56Z")
> [@simster](#): > > That is what Pro-Choice is about - allowing people to choose the medical procedures they want for the purposes they want them - all other arguments about “sanctity of life” , “fetus = human with rights”, etc are all diversions from the point at hand. I think you put it best. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/45 "2009-08-28T22:49:17Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Thanks! > > Though, I disagree that survival status is a valid way of defining personhood, largely because my survival status is dependent on the environment just as much as a zygote’s. If you tear me away from my Walmarts and my bank accounts and my refridgerator and my water faucets, I’ll be aborted within a week. > > Since I’m a little leery of any definition of personhood which excludes myself, I’ll stick with the one based on brain activity. I’m _fairly_ sure I have brain activity… Oh, I’m soooo domesticated too that I doubt I’d survive alone even on a ready to harvest farm. The brain activity you mention is the key. A toddler might know how to pick a strawberry without being told, but he/she probably won’t know when it’s ripe, how to wash it, how to harvest a lot at once, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blut_Aus_Nord)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/46 "2009-08-28T22:53:18Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Ha! Begbert2, I love your posts. > > … > I can only consider beings capable of surviving on their own as people. Not necessarily in a society sense. I don’t care how much their money earning potential is. 🙂 But what about the mentally retarded or the physically handicapped? Does their dependency rob them of their person-hood? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/47 "2009-08-28T22:56:59Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Oh, I’m soooo domesticated too that I doubt I’d survive alone even on a ready to harvest farm. The brain activity you mention is the key. A toddler might know how to pick a strawberry without being told, but he/she probably won’t know when it’s ripe, how to wash it, how to harvest a lot at once, etc. Heck man, _I_ wouldn’t know when it was ripe. (I’m a nightmare in a kitchen, seriously.) At this point you are talking about deficiencies in knowledge, experience, and/or education, and if that’s where we’re going then I’m going to start slowly edging out of the room again, before somebody blindsides me with a question about european history or something and decides I’m subhuman based on the results. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/48 "2009-08-28T23:07:06Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I often get the impression from anti-abortion types that their point of view is dependent upon the existence of a “soul” or something like that. For some, that’s surely true. Then you have people like[Dr. Bernard Nathanson,](http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html) who left NARAL to join the pro-life side. He did so while still an atheist, so presumably, the notion of a soul had no bearing on his decision. > [@](#): > > Since the person-defining “soul” has zero scientific validity… If you mean that it cannot be detected by science, that’s true… but only because science is the wrong instrument to use. The soul, if it exists, is non-material; hence, its existence is a metaphysical question rather than a scientific one. Beauty, ethics, and morality cannot be detected by science either, yet few of us would dismiss these notions are being nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/49 "2009-08-28T23:19:04Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > You have the capability of learning if you really have to. I’d still need someone to teach me, making me dependent on the teacher. > [@](#): > > I love steak, but I don’t know how to kill a cow. If I’m stranded on an island only with cows, I’ll try my best to figure it out. If I’m 3, I’ll cry till I’m dead. Sure, if I were stranded on an island populated with the docile and domesticated end result of ten thousand years of animal husbandry, I’d probably be able to get by, too. But I’m still relying on the work of ten thousand years worth of cattle farmers to get by. If I have to hunt down a wild aurochs for dinner, my survivability is significantly impaired. Of course, the issue of disease and injury puts an entirely different spin on your definition of personhood. About two years back, I had to have surgery to correct a life threatening condition. It’s not something I could have done myself, even if I had medical training. Did I lose my status as a person for the duration of my medical treatment? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/50 "2009-08-29T01:21:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Does that mean I’m not a person? Well, I didn’t want to be the one to tell you, Zerblix… ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/51 "2009-08-29T01:57:26Z")
> [@Blut\_Aus\_Nord](#): > > But what about the mentally retarded or the physically handicapped? Does their dependency rob them of their person-hood? Hmmm… still a societal way of classification. I’m stuck thinking on the survivability stuff. If they were alone after a disaster or stranded, no they wouldn’t survive. They would need a society to care for them. Since we HAVE a society, yes they’re people. I don’t believe that people need a function to define themselves as people. Hell, I’m still unemployed and I consider myself a person. (!) Too bad Eunice Kennedy Shriver passed. I’d like to know what she would think on this. ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/52 "2009-08-29T14:17:03Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > If you mean that it cannot be detected by science, that’s true… but only because science is the wrong instrument to use. The soul, if it exists, is non-material; hence, its existence is a metaphysical question rather than a scientific one. Beauty, ethics, and morality cannot be detected by science either, yet few of us would dismiss these notions are being nonsensical. But beauty, ethics, and morality CAN be contributed to series of electrical pulses in the brain. The soul, on the other hand, is a completely made-up concept that just encompasses anyone who’s living. It’s what people thought was inside a human before science told us that various parts of the brain are behind different thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/53 "2009-08-29T16:33:06Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > The soul, if it exists, is non-material; hence, its existence is a metaphysical question rather than a scientific one. Beauty, ethics, and morality cannot be detected by science either, yet few of us would dismiss these notions are being nonsensical. Beauty can be analyzed by science–it is something that influences real human behavior and its causes and antecedents are well within the province of science. Ethics and morality are both components of human evolution and the development of human society, and have been objects of legitimate scientific interest for some time. Something akin to moral and ethical systems have been identified in other primate groups, for example. The soul is something mystical with nothing observable in the real world that can account for it. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, but allowing for mystical objects to influence law-making leads down a path to insanity. Anyone can invent a mystical object; then all one must do is get enough people to believe it. _It remains something that someone made up with no basis in reality, nonetheless_. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/54 "2009-08-29T22:12:38Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This is very spiritual and IMHO: > > The attraction that m/f have for each other I believe is the desire of the woman to give life to a certain aspect of that man, to have a child - regardless of what her mind says it’s her heart that desires the child. As such the female selects the child her soul/heart wants and desires. The child is part of the soul of the father at this time. During the sexual union that child is being coaxed to separate him/herself from the man and become a total person. Once that child agrees with that a new person is formed totally complete. IMHO Physically this would happen at ejaculation. I think you haven’t thought this through. Mother soul to child soul: Come on now, I want you to be my baby. Separate, please. Child soul: But it’s comfortable here. I want to stay. Mother soul: It will be good. You’ll see the world. You’ll grow up. You’ll do things. \ You’ll get to suckle. Child soul: You convinced me. I’m on my way. Father pulls out, being a Catholic or something. Child soul: Oh, shit … ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/55 "2009-08-29T22:31:51Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > So, am I understanding correctly that (to paraphrase) you believe the question of personhood is a separate question from the right to abortion? (A fetus may be classified as a person, but a woman may still choose to abort?) I have the same position, myself. Go ahead and call a fetus a person if you want, I don’t care. It’s a person that is inside the body of another person and the “host” may or may not want it to stay there. If trespassing laws codify that a property owner has to right to remove intruders from his land, I find it hard to imagine a similar (if not far greater) right to self-determination doesn’t apply to one’s own body. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/56 "2009-08-29T22:35:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I think you haven’t thought this through. > > Mother soul to child soul: Come on now, I want you to be my baby. Separate, please. > Child soul: But it’s comfortable here. I want to stay. > > Mother soul: It will be good. You’ll see the world. You’ll grow up. You’ll do things. > > \ > You’ll get to suckle. > > Child soul: You convinced me. I’m on my way. > > Father pulls out, being a Catholic or something. > > Child soul: Oh, shit … Not to mention the fact that a great many conceptions end in miscarriage, typically without the woman knowing it. From 30%-70%; estimates vary wildly because of the fact that so often no one knows it was there at all. But the estimates have been going up as medical science’s ability to detect pregnancy improves. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/57 "2009-08-29T23:21:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not to mention the fact that a great many conceptions end in miscarriage, typically without the woman knowing it. From 30%-70%; estimates vary wildly because of the fact that so often no one knows it was there at all. But the estimates have been going up as medical science’s ability to detect pregnancy improves. That does it. You’ve stepped on my joke once too often. Please turn in your anti-rapture helmet and Irony Meter when the black helicopter pays you its next visit. You are hereby drummed out of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy, which of course does not exist. Humph. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/58 "2009-08-30T02:22:47Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > You sicken me. While not specifically an insult, this stand alone comment in a post does nothing to promote civil discussion. If you have an overwhelming need to comment on another poster, open a Pit thread. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/59 "2009-08-30T03:47:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I think you haven’t thought this through. > > Mother soul to child soul: Come on now, I want you to be my baby. Separate, please. > Child soul: But it’s comfortable here. I want to stay. > > Mother soul: It will be good. You’ll see the world. You’ll grow up. You’ll do things. > > \ > You’ll get to suckle. > > Child soul: You convinced me. I’m on my way. > > Father pulls out, being a Catholic or something. > > Child soul: Oh, shit … Or, if someone’s not a Catholic, what about using a condom? Or if Mom’s on birth control? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034/60 "2009-08-30T04:10:42Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Or, if someone’s not a Catholic, what about using a condom? Or if Mom’s on birth control? 😉 See the sperm segment in Woody Allen’s **Everything you Wanted to Know About Sex.**. BTW, gags don’t go through peer review, just so you know. \*wanders off muttering about goyim and humor … \* [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-what-makes-a-person/508034.md?page=4)