# Pro-choicers: would you take this abortion deal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119 "2013-04-30T16:39:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/181 "2013-05-06T22:17:48Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Are late-term abortions that big a deal? If access was completely unrestrained, what’s the worst-case scenario? "Welcome to Sunday Night _Fetus Football!!"_ At least, that’s what you’d think from the rhetoric of the anti-abortion movement. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/182 "2013-05-06T22:37:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > "Welcome to Sunday Night _Fetus Football!!"_ > > At least, that’s what you’d think from the rhetoric of the anti-abortion movement. [Potato fetus room?](http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4678882551268906&pid=1.7) ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/183 "2013-05-06T23:25:17Z")
Late-term abortions is the scary term used to try to deny a woman’s right to choose. Late-term abortions with a viable fetus and a healthy mother do not exist legally. Do you know anyone who had one under those conditions? I don’t want conditions. Women don’t have abortions with viable fetuses and are healthy. My friend had to choose a late term abortion because her child had her brain on the outside and would have died right after birth, who should,have made that decision ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/184 "2013-05-07T00:31:43Z")
We can’t say it doesn’t happen because we don’t try to find out if it does or not. However, I’d think the evidence points to it actually happening more than we think. Gosnell didn’t care what he was aborting, and Tiller was violating Kansas state law by getting the second opinion from a doctor employed by him. He wouldn’t need to do that if he was on the up and up. To the extent that it is rare, it’s because a) It’s illegal almost everywhere to abort a healthy fetus with a healthy mother, and b) Most doctors have ethics. However, if state regulators aren’t interested in finding out how many criminals there are out there and shutting them down, then it will happen. Mass shootings are also rare, yet Congress is hellbent on passing laws. Gosnell probably murdered more kids than all the mass shootings in the world since his practice opened. I would say that demands some action, and the best part is, it doesn’t even require a change in laws. It just requires regulators to actually inspect the damn clinics. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/185 "2013-05-07T00:42:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Gosnell probably murdered more kids than all the mass shootings in the world since his practice opened. Gosnell was also exactly what the anti-abortion fanatics are pushing women to. He had the clients he had because the anti-abortion protestors terrified women too much to go to a legitimate clinic. The anti-abortion protestors might as well wear “Go Gosnell” buttons. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/186 "2013-05-07T00:54:19Z")
That’s been a lame argument for the last few weeks and it hasn’t gotten any better with age. Women went to Gosnell because he would give them a late term abortion and no one else would because it was illegal. Now, this could be an argument to make late term abortions legal for healthy fetuses with healthy mothers, but you’d still have the problem of, what kind of doctor would do that, even if it was legal? Not many, so you’d still have the access problem and chances are the doctors performing them would be pretty awful people. So a better answer is treating clinics the same way we treat tattoo parlors or restaurants: regular inspections. The scariest part is that killing babies isn’t what got him busted. It’s that being a piece of crap, he couldn’t help running an illegal drug business on the side. If there are any real baby killers still out there, we’ll never know since no one WANTS TO KNOW. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/187 "2013-05-07T01:04:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If there are any real baby killers still out there, we’ll never know since no one WANTS TO KNOW. Maybe this is something society doesn’t need to know. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/188 "2013-05-07T01:12:37Z")
Then women should have the same right to dispose of newborns as they would if they went to a doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/189 "2013-05-07T01:20:42Z")
What the hell is going on here? Nobody has a right to “dispose” of newborns. Gosnell’s murders were not abortions. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/190 "2013-05-07T01:22:33Z")
Thus my argument that we should be investigating to find out if there are more Gosnells, since his murders were not what got him caught. If not for his illegal drug business, he’d still be snipping necks. Bryan’s counterargument was “maybe we don’t need to know”. If that’s going to be our attitude toward murdering newborns, then you shouldn’t need a medical license to do it. A medical license is unnecessary, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/191 "2013-05-07T01:30:47Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We can’t say it doesn’t happen because we don’t try to find out if it does or not. However, I’d think the evidence points to it actually happening more than we think. Gosnell didn’t care what he was aborting, and Tiller was violating Kansas state law by getting the second opinion from a doctor employed by him. He wouldn’t need to do that if he was on the up and up. In Gosnell’s case, it wasn’t about abortion, it was about malpractice – he was harming women, born infants, etc, unsafe, unsanitary conditions, etc. It’s completely irrelevant. Again, I believe that ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/192 "2013-05-07T01:37:08Z")
Damn time limit! I personally believe that late term abortions should only be for medical reasons. Bringing up people like Gosnell only poisons the well. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/193 "2013-05-07T02:33:37Z")
Gosnell doesn’t matter as far as whether late term abortions should be legal or not. Gosnell is an argument for regulation and oversight. pro-choicers and pro-lifers could make any abortion deal they wanted, it would be useless if there was no enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/194 "2013-05-07T02:44:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Then women should have the same right to dispose of newborns as they would if they went to a doctor. Well, they can, in venues that have “safe haven” laws. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/195 "2013-05-07T05:33:04Z")
If you’re referring to what I think you’re referring to, the baby lives. That’s fine. But a medical license doesn’t give you immunity from murder. When a viable baby emerges from a woman, it is a US citizen under our Constitution and existing law. If such babies are being murdered, we need to find out. I’d bet anything we find out there are more Gosnells. Down in Florida, a live baby was placed in a plastic bag and taken away because the woman gave birth in the waiting room. > **[Doctor loses license in live birth abortion case - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/06/florida.abortion/index.html)** > > A doctor's license was revoked Friday in the case of a teenager who planned to have an abortion but instead gave birth to a baby she says was killed when clinic staffers put it into a plastic bag and threw it in the trash. In this case, we see many of the same problems we saw in the Gosnell case. Not as bad, but still a crooked doctor taking shortcuts that jeopardize patients and getting away with it. ---
**Author:** ![stui\_magpie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stui_magpie/32/11010_2.png) [@stui\_magpie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stui_magpie)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/196 "2013-05-07T08:46:38Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > **Shodan** , how do you define late-term abortions? The definition I used was terminations post-viability (~22-24 weeks). Since abortion is basically illegal post-viability outside of extenuating circumstances such as health and life of the mother and severe fetal abnormality (which I cite in the first link) - I would logically conclude that most late-term abortions obtained _legally_ were for these reasons. I guess you call that speculation? > > In an attempt to be magnanimous I included the study on second trimester abortions in case your definition of ‘late-term’ was different than post-viability. > > ETA: > > **Adahar’s** cite was for terminations performed at 16+weeks gestation, not necessarily late-term. I think you’ve just reinforced the argument about having restrictions. The situation you describe above is fine by me and I would guess by most pro choice people. Put restrictions in place after a point in time, but allow abortion after that in the circumstances you describe. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/197 "2013-05-07T12:35:37Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If you’re referring to what I think you’re referring to, the baby lives. That’s fine. But a medical license doesn’t give you immunity from murder. When a viable baby emerges from a woman, it is a US citizen under our Constitution and existing law. If such babies are being murdered, we need to find out. I’d bet anything we find out there are more Gosnells. Down in Florida, a live baby was placed in a plastic bag and taken away because the woman gave birth in the waiting room. Well, it’s easy to find any number of individual horror stories. I suggest that if you want the number of incidents reduced, drop all resistance to so-called “late term” abortions, and you’d get fewer cases that closely resemble infanticide. If instead you want to make it difficult for women already in a difficult situation, be prepared for more Gosnells. As you say, though, society doesn’t want to hear about Gosnell cases. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/198 "2013-05-07T12:39:33Z")
There are two problems with just legalizing late term abortions in all cases: 1. We’re talking about babies here, not just collections of tissue. And by week 22 or so, they can feel pain. 2. Doctors won’t do late term abortions on healthy fetuses with healthy mothers anyway. Unless they are monsters. So you still get the Gosnells. There’s an easier way to stop future Gosnells: inspections. That’s how we stop mass intentional food poisonings. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/199 "2013-05-07T13:08:26Z")
Those are definitions instead of arguments (“babies”, “monsters”) and if you want to stop future Gosnells, decrease the demand for Gosnells. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/200 "2013-05-07T13:16:54Z")
That makes no sense. It’s like reducing the demand for hit men by legalizing them. These aren’t mere definitions. After a certain point in pregnancy, we’re talking about something completely different. That’s why Roe v. Wade didn’t legalize all abortions and why nearly every country in the world requires women to seek special permission to get third trimester, and sometimes even second trimester, abortions. If we were to just say that any woman can get an abortion for any reason up until the day of birth, that would make us barbarous. Not that you could ever get any public support whatsoever for such a law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119.md?page=11)