# Pro-choicers: would you take this abortion deal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119 "2013-04-30T16:39:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/201 "2013-05-07T13:40:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That makes no sense. It’s like reducing the demand for hit men by legalizing them. Not really - it’s more like reducing the demand for hit men by making it easier to access arbitration and counseling services, i.e. more avenues for people to resolve their disputes before they get to the hit-man stage. > [@](#): > > These aren’t mere definitions. After a certain point in pregnancy, we’re talking about something completely different. Are we? Okay, if you say so… > [@](#): > > That’s why Roe v. Wade didn’t legalize all abortions and why nearly every country in the world requires women to seek special permission to get third trimester, and sometimes even second trimester, abortions. Huh, I thought the language of _Roe_ was more of a compromise on the issue rather than a strict scientific benchmark. There’s some wiggle room in the wording (viability “is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks”), after all. I’m not aware of any case where an autopsy was conducted on an aborted fetus and it was determined after the fact that viability had been achieved. > [@](#): > > If we were to just say that any woman can get an abortion for any reason up until the day of birth, that would make us barbarous. Not that you could ever get any public support whatsoever for such a law. That’s just another definition, “barbarous”. Anyway (in theory, at least, but not really in practice) the situation you describe already exists in Canada, and we have not descended into barbarism by any definition I know of. From this position, I would not accept the OP’s proposal as it represents a curtailing of liberty. If I lived in a U.S. state with restrictive laws and obstructionist hoop-jumps, I might see the proposal as a significant improvement. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/202 "2013-05-07T13:50:17Z")
I don’t know that Roe was a compromise, so much as an attempt to determine when the rights of the child become a consideration. obviously a collection of tissue’s interests do not override the mother’s, but a kicking, giggling baby does override some of them. Not her life, obviously, but certainly her convenience. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/203 "2013-05-07T14:23:35Z")
> [@Prejteach2](#): > > Late-term abortions with a viable fetus and a healthy mother do not exist legally. Do you know anyone who had one under those conditions? > [@](#): > > According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, an abortion-rights research group that conducts surveys of the nation’s abortion doctors, about 15,000 abortions were performed in the year 2000 on women 20 weeks or more along in their pregnancies; the vast majority were between the 20th and 24th week. > [@](#): > > In a widely-publicized interview with The New York Times in 1997, Ron Fitzsimmons, executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, estimated that in the majority of cases, the procedure( **ed. D&X abortion, which happened about 2,200 times in the same period** ) is performed on a healthy mother and healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along in development. [Cite.](http://www.npr.org/2006/02/21/5168163/partial-birth-abortion-separating-fact-from-spin) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/204 "2013-05-07T19:13:46Z")
Again, **Shodan** , what is your definition of late-term?I used post-viability to define late-term. You rather condescendingly dismissed my second cite which discussed second trimester terminations. > [@Shodan](#): > > So this does not address late term abortions, just second trimester, which is not the same thing. Are you now changing your definition of ‘late-term’ to include the second trimester, because the 21-24 weeks terminations you cited above are in the second trimester. In 1997, \<24 weeks was pre-viable (16 years later medical advances may have pushed viability to ~22 weeks, but it’s still very much a gray area). Elective abortions are legal up to viability, do you disagree? Also, to further clarify my first [cite](http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_PLTA.pdf) (which I can not quote as it is a reading of the chart and symbols, so feel free to check my interpretation): Most states allow for late-term terminations (post viable, third trimester, 24+ weeks gestation, to be clear) in extenuating circumstances for the health and life of the mother. Only Georgia, Louisiana, Utah allow post-viable terminations for lethal fetal abnormality; where Maryland, Texas, Colorado and New Mexico allow for fetal abnormality. (For some reason Colorado and New Mexico are not listed in the chart, but I am aware late-term abortions for fetal abnormality are performed legally there) ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/205 "2013-05-07T19:42:47Z")
I once read an anti-abortion tract that stated that a woman should wait until she was twenty weeks pregnant before seeking an abortion because “25%\* of all miscarriages happen within the first twenty weeks of pregnancy, and a miscarriage is safer than an abortion.” It also claimed that viability happened at 21 weeks! \*Actually, 20% of all miscarriages happen in the first eight weeks of pregnancy, but no anti-abortion tract will admit that. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/206 "2013-05-07T21:22:41Z")
Does anyone know a healthy viable fetus aborted with a healthy mother? You don’t, because it doesn’t happen. There are criminals out there but women don’t abort viable fetuses and making the exception sound like the rule is just what the anti choice people want ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/207 "2013-05-08T02:30:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t know that Roe was a compromise, so much as an attempt to determine when the rights of the child become a consideration. I didn’t know _Roe_ explicitly extended rights to the fetus, just put limits on what the states could regulate regarding pregnancy. > [@](#): > > obviously a collection of tissue’s interests do not override the mother’s, but a kicking, giggling baby does override some of them. Not her life, obviously, but certainly her convenience. Well, once it’s free of her body, then of course the situation changes dramatically. I appreciate and see the value of safe-haven laws, where the mother can indeed (at her convenience) relinquish responsibility and custody of a newborn under the mildly trying requirement that it be at a hospital or fire station or such. I gather these reduce (or are at least meant to reduce) desperation-triggered infanticide and endangerment. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/208 "2013-05-14T11:45:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, as opposed to the pro-_choice_ position, where people’s choices are respected even if they choose not to support or assist in abortions. > “Pro-choice” = the belief that people should be able to choose for themselves whether or not to have/support/enable abortions. “Pro-abortion” = the belief that people should not be allowed to choose not to for themselves. > > The rest of your garbage about being in favor of child molesting and rape is too reminiscent of **Der Trihs** ’ crap to bother with. > > Regards, > Shodan Pro-choice people are not pro-abortion they are pro-life, just believe that an already born person has more rights than a fertile egg. ‘Many’ who call themselves Pro-Life, are just for a fertile egg, embryo, and after it becomes a born person, they don’t want to help support it for the years before it becomes an adult and many could care less about the already born Mother and her other children( if she has any). I feel when a person who wants to control the lives of others should then make every sacrifice necessary to support a Mother, pay her expenses and aid her in any way while she is pregnant, then any help from child care through their education into adult hood or mind their own business. talk is cheap, action and help is another thing. No one can know what another is capable of, How many are lined up at an abortion clinics waiting to take the fetus, or have it transplanted into themselves if possible? I doubt any. It is a religious issue and many Christians I know, forget that Jesus seemed to want people to mind their own business, He is quoted as saying," let him with out sin cast the first stone" ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/209 "2013-05-21T02:13:02Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Pro-choice people are not pro-abortion they are pro-life, just believe that an already born person has more rights than a fertile egg. ‘Many’ who call themselves Pro-Life, are just for a fertile egg, embryo, and after it becomes a born person, they don’t want to help support it for the years before it becomes an adult and many could care less about the already born Mother and her other children( if she has any). > > I feel when a person who wants to control the lives of others should then make every sacrifice necessary to support a Mother, pay her expenses and aid her in any way while she is pregnant, then any help from child care through their education into adult hood or mind their own business. talk is cheap, action and help is another thing. No one can know what another is capable of, How many are lined up at an abortion clinics waiting to take the fetus, or have it transplanted into themselves if possible? I doubt any. It is a religious issue and many Christians I know, forget that Jesus seemed to want people to mind their own business, He is quoted as saying," let him with out sin cast the first stone" For them life begins at conception and ends at birth ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/210 "2013-05-21T03:17:08Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I feel when a person who wants to control the lives of others should then make every sacrifice necessary to support a Mother, pay her expenses and aid her in any way while she is pregnant, then any help from child care through their education into adult hood or mind their own business. talk is cheap, action and help is another thing. No one can know what another is capable of, How many are lined up at an abortion clinics waiting to take the fetus, or have it transplanted into themselves if possible? I doubt any. This is why I generally support a welfare state which would allow mothers to provide at least basic services for their children. > [@](#): > > It is a religious issue and many Christians I know, forget that Jesus seemed to want people to mind their own business, He is quoted as saying," let him with out sin cast the first stone" If abortion is as defined by the pro-life-that it involves the taking of a human life-than certainly it is society’s business at least as much as animal cruelty is. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/211 "2013-05-21T13:02:45Z")
> [@Prejteach2](#): > > For them life begins at conception and ends at birth Life is a passed on thing, it began eons ago. Were it not for our ancestors we would not be here. They also believe they live after they are dead, belief is fine, but not all beliefs are fact! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/212 "2013-05-21T13:06:31Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > This is why I generally support a welfare state which would allow mothers to provide at least basic services for their children. > > If abortion is as defined by the pro-life-that it involves the taking of a human life-than certainly it is society’s business at least as much as animal cruelty is. Pro-choice people do not call abortion pro-life anymore than self defense. How can one judge what another can bear? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/213 "2013-05-21T13:09:51Z")
[quote=“monavis, post:212, topic:657119”] Pro-choice people do not call abortion pro-life anymore than self defense. How can one judge what another can bear?[/QU There is human life in every man’s sperm, that would mean each ejaculation takes many human lives? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/214 "2013-05-21T13:20:27Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Pro-choice people do not call abortion pro-life anymore than self defense. How can one judge what another can bear? His point is that if you believe (as pro-life people apparently do) that a foetus is a person, you’d be a pretty shitty person if you didn’t try to stop abortions. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/215 "2013-05-21T13:55:51Z")
If they believe it is a person, I suggest they remove the ZEF and dress it and feed it just like any other person…that is if they can see it ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/216 "2013-05-22T13:19:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > His point is that if you believe (as pro-life people apparently do) that a foetus is a person, you’d be a pretty shitty person if you didn’t try to stop abortions. That could then mean a fertile Chicken egg is a chicken, a horse fetus is a horse, a pollenated apple blossom is an apple. A frozen embryo can be seen it is not a frozen child! Biologically there is no difference, once it can be recognized as a child then it is, I stated before, I had 2 miscarriages, my doctor at my request let me see the embryo and it didn’t even come close to looking like a baby. I spent 10 days in the hospital trying to hold on to the second one, even though the test came back positive; after 10 days I had to have a D&C. I was very ill for a long time after that! The best way to avoid abortions is to have free birth control for all women of child bearing age that were not able to care for a child, mentally, physically, financially. Many who are pro-Birth only, also do not want a woman to have birth control because they believe it is sinful, but in many cases the child is abused, or neglected. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/217 "2013-05-27T01:08:29Z")
Mirror image law proposed to warn women about the dangers of child birth. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-proposal-for-moms-to-be-like-abortion-rules-its-for-their-own-good/2013/05/24/5594f204-c3bd-11e2-9fe2-6ee52d0eb7c1\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-proposal-for-moms-to-be-like-abortion-rules-its-for-their-own-good/2013/05/24/5594f204-c3bd-11e2-9fe2-6ee52d0eb7c1_story.html) > [@](#): > > It is time to demand equality and tell our legislatures to enact the Defense of Motherhood Act. > > DOMA would extend existing protections, with small modifications as necessary. > > In the interest of safety, DOMA would insist that all prenatal care be provided by licensed physicians (not nurses or midwives) in medical offices fully equipped to handle obstetric emergencies — even if that means having to wait longer for appointments, pay more or drive for hours. > > To ensure that the decision to go through with a pregnancy is fully considered, there would be a 72-hour waiting period between the time a pregnant woman first sees a doctor and the time she can get prenatal care. > > Physicians would have to inform pregnant women about the risks of childbirth and motherhood. \*\*They would have to note that childbirth, compared with abortion, is roughly 14 times more likely to result in maternal death \*\*and is more often associated with depression and other forms of mental illness. They would also have to emphasize that working women in the United States can expect to see their wages drop 9 to 16 percent for each child and that having a child makes it significantly less likely that an unmarried woman will ever marry. > > To ensure that women are not being coerced by partners, family members or clergy into bearing a child, DOMA would require that all women be interviewed about the circumstances of conception and their motives for continuing with pregnancy. Did a husband sabotage birth control? Was a woman unable to afford contraception because her employer refused to comply with the Affordable Care Act? > > And, finally, pregnant women would be required to view a two-hour video featuring a colicky newborn, a toddler having a tantrum and a sulking teenager. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/218 "2013-05-27T04:15:23Z")
I think that pro-choice legislators should take up this law at once and campaign on it heavily. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/219 "2013-05-27T12:47:31Z")
And even include awoman in issues about abortion [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119.md?page=10)