# Pro-choicers: would you take this abortion deal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119 "2013-04-30T16:39:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![esmeralda2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ccd318/32.png) [@esmeralda2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esmeralda2)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/161 "2013-05-03T17:33:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Isn’t this _already_ the status quo? By my understanding of Planned Parenthood v. Casey, elective abortion is legal up until the point of external viability, which tends to happen around the 22-week range, and later abortions are legal strictly out of medical necessity. Yes, that’s what I thought. What the OP described is pretty much what the situation already is. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/162 "2013-05-03T17:46:24Z")
No, the OP proposal is more restrictive than the status quo for many states, in that it defines medical necessity for the woman very narrowly (though still imprecisely), and takes no notice at all of the condition or prospects of the fetus. ---
**Author:** ![esmeralda2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ccd318/32.png) [@esmeralda2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esmeralda2)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/163 "2013-05-03T18:29:53Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > No, the OP proposal is more restrictive than the status quo for many states, in that it defines medical necessity for the woman very narrowly (though still imprecisely), and takes no notice at all of the condition or prospects of the fetus. That’s true about the fetus. In my other post, I specified that the situation of the fetus should be an aspect of whether or not to have a late term abortion. Late term abortions should be dependent on that and the safety of the mother. Earlier abortions should be on demand. That’s pretty much what it is now. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/164 "2013-05-03T20:01:32Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > I don’t really understand why feminists and liberals think that abortion is the greatest gift to women and justice when it’s used as a way to reduce the number of baby girls in China and India and the number of non-whites in the US. It’s really ironic. Abortion is just as much a gift to men who don’t want to be fathers as it is to women who don’t want to be mothers. Cite please for the “non-whites in America”? That sounds like more anti-abortion bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/165 "2013-05-03T20:21:33Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Cite please for the “non-whites in America”? That sounds like more anti-abortion bullshit. I already asked and he cited an editorial from The Washington Times. :rolleyes: It’s _obvious_ anti-abortion bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/166 "2013-05-05T17:21:33Z")
> [@donnie\_darko](#): > > And I know for a fact Planned Parenthood is strategically positioned in black communities. There’s a huge PP center in my city in the blackest part of town. Oh. So the fact that one PP is located in a minority part of one town proves it is a genocidal plot.:rolleyes: One another woman and I were talking to an anti-abortion protestor at the Planned Parenthood who cited this argument. I asked her how she knew more blacks get abortions. Her response was “I only see black and hispanic women going in here.” The other woman said “And this is the only place that does abortions. Nobody can go to their OB/GYN or another place to get one?” The poor protestors head almost exploded. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/167 "2013-05-05T18:09:25Z")
Works for me. ---
**Author:** ![Cheryl44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@Cheryl44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheryl44)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/168 "2013-05-05T22:29:54Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > In some cases, later abortions are about unexpected health problems, not laziness or irresponsibility. Actually, once you hit 9roughly) 22 weeks any abortion by a reputable doctor is for therapeutic purposes only. This is not a reply to the poster I’m quoting but people who would ban all late term abortions really have no idea what they’re talking about. Women who abort during the last trimester probably have the name picked out and the nursery planned. Then something goes seriously wrong and she has to terminate the pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/169 "2013-05-06T01:34:04Z")
71% Woman didn’t recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation 48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion 33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents 24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion 8% Woman waited for her relationship to change 8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion 6% Something changed after woman became pregnant 6% Woman didn’t know timing is important 5% Woman didn’t know she could get an abortion 2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy 11% Other > **[Late termination of pregnancy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_term_abortion)** > > Late termination of pregnancy, also referred to as late-term abortion, describes the termination of pregnancy by induced abortion during a late stage of gestation. In this context, late is not precisely defined, and different medical publications use varying gestational age thresholds. As of 2015\[update\] in the United States, more than 90% of abortions occur before the 13th week, 1.3% of abortions in the United States took place after the 21st week, and less than 1% occur after 24 wee Reasons f... Note these figures are after 16 weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/170 "2013-05-06T03:50:20Z")
> [@Cheryl44](#): > > Actually, once you hit 9roughly) 22 weeks any abortion by a reputable doctor is for therapeutic purposes only. > > This is not a reply to the poster I’m quoting but people who would ban all late term abortions really have no idea what they’re talking about. Women who abort during the last trimester probably have the name picked out and the nursery planned. Then something goes seriously wrong and she has to terminate the pregnancy. I don’t know what it was about this specific post that got to me, but you’ve changed my opinion. I don’t think I’d support any ban on late term abortions. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/171 "2013-05-06T03:59:37Z")
A total ban makes no sense, but stiff regulations are justified, I think. They should only be done to protect the physical health of the mother, two doctors should be needed concurring in that opinion(and not one employed by the other, as Tiller did in violation of Kansas law), and it should be done with an anesthegioloist present, or better yet, in a hospital. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/172 "2013-05-06T08:52:43Z")
Abortions are forbidden in Ireland unless the mother’s life is “clearly and directly threatened”. It recently resulted in a mother’s death because the risk to the mother wasn’t clear and direct enough for the doctors to be willing to risk prosecution (and to add insult to injury, it was known that the foetus had no chance to live). So, no. Replace “clearly and directly threatened” by “life or health of the mother is at risk” and we can talk. Also, what about gravely disabled foetus, or even as in the above case, foetus who won’t live anyway? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/173 "2013-05-06T09:06:40Z")
If the fetus won’t live, that’s one thing. If it’s gravely disabled, no. Stephen Hawking is gravely disabled. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/174 "2013-05-06T13:10:09Z")
Oh, for crying out loud. That is one ridiculous post–Stephen Hawking has ALS (Lou Gering’s disease). He did not have it in utereo, and I seriously doubt they run a test for it on a fetus. But if a sonogram shows a fetus is gravely disabled, and the parents do not want the child and realixe that it is unlikely to be adopted, then yes, I approve of the choice for a safe, legal abortionl ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/175 "2013-05-06T13:18:14Z")
> [@Cheryl44](#): > > Women who abort during the last trimester probably have the name picked out and the nursery planned. Then something goes seriously wrong and she has to terminate the pregnancy. Could I have a cite that most late-term abortions occur because something is seriously wrong with either the mother or the fetus? Thanks in advance. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/176 "2013-05-06T17:16:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Could I have a cite that most late-term abortions occur because something is seriously wrong with either the mother or the fetus? Thanks in advance. > > Regards, > Shodan Late-term abortions are typically defined as terminations at or after ~22-24 weeks gestation, where most states restrict terminations outside of extenuating circumstances. Elective abortion is legal up to approximate viability ~22-24 weeks. This is why Gosnell is being charged as fetal evidence suggest he was performing terminations past viability ~24 weeks. It is my understanding that few states even allow terminations for fetal abnormalities post 24 weeks. I think Colorado, California, Maryland and Kansas (just off the top of my head). So yeah, late-term abortions are usually performed in extenuating circumstances such as life and health of the mother and severe fetal abnormality - by law and definition of [“late-term.”](http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Late+term+abortion) ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/177 "2013-05-06T17:39:05Z")
Here’s some links that may clarify: [State Policies on Late Abortions](http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_PLTA.pdf) [Who has second-trimester abortions in the United States?](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/j.contraception.2011.10.012.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/178 "2013-05-06T19:31:55Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Late-term abortions are typically defined as terminations at or after ~22-24 weeks gestation, where most states restrict terminations outside of extenuating circumstances. Elective abortion is legal up to approximate viability ~22-24 weeks. This is why Gosnell is being charged as fetal evidence suggest he was performing terminations past viability ~24 weeks. It is my understanding that few states even allow terminations for fetal abnormalities post 24 weeks. I think Colorado, California, Maryland and Kansas (just off the top of my head). So yeah, late-term abortions are usually performed in extenuating circumstances such as life and health of the mother and severe fetal abnormality - by law and definition of [“late-term.”](http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Late+term+abortion) I was asking for a cite, not speculation. For instance - > [@](#): > > Here’s some links that may clarify: > > State Policies on Late Abortions > > Who has second-trimester abortions in the United States? No, they don’t clarify. > [@](#): > > Results > : In 2008, 10.3% of abortions were 13 weeks LMP or later, including 4.0% at 16+ weeks. Groups most likely to have abortions at 13 weeks or later included black women, women with less education, those using health insurance to pay for the procedure and those who had experienced 3 > or more disruptive events in the last year. > Groups more likely to have an abortion at 16 weeks or later included black women, higher income women and those paying with health insurance. > > Conclusions: > Black women and those with less education would > most benefit from increased availability of first - > trimester abortion services So this does not address late term abortions, just second trimester, which is not the same thing. Nor does it say anything about what was “seriously wrong” with either the mother or the fetus. Cheryl44 claimed > [@](#): > > Women who abort during the last trimester probably have the name picked out and the nursery planned. Then something goes seriously wrong and she has to terminate the pregnancy. Which looks like a claim that most late-term abortions occur because of a serious problem, either with the fetus or with the mother, that created a need for a late-term abortion. What I would like to see is a cite as to what are those serious problems, and how many late-term abortions they cause. Because look at **adaher** ’s cite. The data were collected by the Guttmacher Institute, hardly a bastion of the pro-life movement, and they say that a late diagnosis of a fetal issue is only a factor in late-term abortions 2% of the time. What I would like is a cite that shows that serious health issues are the reason for most late-term abortions. Not “I was in denial about being pregnant” or “I just didn’t get around to it” or “my boyfriend dumped me” - a serious issue with the health of the mother or of the fetus. Regards, Shodan . ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/179 "2013-05-06T20:45:16Z")
Are late-term abortions that big a deal? If access was completely unrestrained, what’s the worst-case scenario? ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119/180 "2013-05-06T21:57:12Z")
**Shodan** , how do you define late-term abortions? The definition I used was terminations post-viability (~22-24 weeks). Since abortion is basically illegal post-viability outside of extenuating circumstances such as health and life of the mother and severe fetal abnormality (which I cite in the first link) - I would logically conclude that most late-term abortions obtained _legally_ were for these reasons. I guess you call that speculation? In an attempt to be magnanimous I included the study on second trimester abortions in case your definition of ‘late-term’ was different than post-viability. ETA: **Adahar’s** cite was for terminations performed at 16+weeks gestation, not necessarily late-term. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-choicers-would-you-take-this-abortion-deal/657119.md?page=10)