# Pro Football Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 5, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222 "2005-12-05T19:25:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lennon\_Lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f04885/32.png) [@Lennon\_Lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lennon_Lives)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/1 "2005-12-05T19:25:02Z")
I’m not a huge pro football fan and would like an answer to the following situation. During a kickoff the receiving team has the option to call a “fair catch”. So when the kicking team is in an apparent on-side kicking situation, why doesn’t the receiving team just call for a “fair catch”? This would prevent the kicking team from interfering with the receiving team and recovering the on-side kick. Is there a specific rule to address this situation? LL ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/2 "2005-12-05T19:25:58Z")
> [@Lennon Lives](#): > > I’m not a huge pro football fan and would like an answer to the following situation. > > During a kickoff the receiving team has the option to call a “fair catch”. So when the kicking team is in an apparent on-side kicking situation, why doesn’t the receiving team just call for a “fair catch”? This would prevent the kicking team from interfering with the receiving team and recovering the on-side kick. > > Is there a specific rule to address this situation? > > LL You can only call for a fair catch if the ball is in the air. Most onside kicks are on the ground. Once the ball hits the ground and travels 10 yards, it’s every man for himself! ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/3 "2005-12-05T19:30:22Z")
On preview I see I’ve been beaten to the punch, but yeah, basically if the ball hits the ground the fair catch is off. This is why most onside kicks are intended to bounce. Here’s a [link](http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/faircatch) to make this post of value. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/4 "2005-12-05T19:38:07Z")
There are three types of onside kicks in my opinion: 1. the surprise onside kick which usually involves the kicker hit a little dribbler and recovering it himself once the return teams turns around 2. the most common variety, where the kicker tries to get the ball to take two or three bounces, with one of them being a high bounce to allow his teammates to run under it 3. the “pooch” kick, which has the kicker put the ball in the air in between the first and second line of defenders and have someone run under it. #2 usually works the best, but the odds of recovering an expected onside kick are still fairly low. They tend to be a little higher in the NFL than in the NCAA because in the NFL you can overload players on one side of the ball. In the NCAA, you have to balance out the players along the line. ---
**Author:** ![Lennon\_Lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f04885/32.png) [@Lennon\_Lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lennon_Lives)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/5 "2005-12-05T19:46:38Z")
BobT and Omnisicent, thanks for your answers. Cleared that up for me. LL ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/6 "2005-12-05T19:48:05Z")
I’ve always thought that teams should try and utilize these other onside kick techniques more often. The “pooch” kick to the opposite side of the cluster would probably have a fair chance of success, as would a well aimed dribbler so long as you have the right players in position and you know it’s coming while the defense doesn’t. If I were an NFL special teams coach I’d devise a onside formation which allowed my kicker to basically call the onside kick at the line, allowing them to explot any weaknesses in the “hands teams” formation. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/7 "2005-12-05T19:51:00Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > If I were an NFL special teams coach I’d devise a onside formation which allowed my kicker to basically call the onside kick at the line, allowing them to explot any weaknesses in the “hands teams” formation. Every now and then, you’ll see an onsides kick formation employ two kickers (normally the regular placekicker and the punter). They start from opposite sides of the ball, and run up together. One holds off at the last moment and allows the other to kick. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/8 "2005-12-05T19:53:39Z")
I always thought for an onside kick I’d have the kicker look for all the world like he’s kicking left, have 9 teammates on the left side pretending it’s coming that way, and then at the last minute the kicker changes direction and kicks right, to his sole teammate on that side of the field. Would that play have a chance? Instead of 10 guys fighting 11 guys, you might get 1 on 2 or 1 on 3. But with fewer defensive hands in the area, I’d think you’d have a better chance to either find a hole between them. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/9 "2005-12-05T19:55:08Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I always thought for an onside kick I’d have the kicker look for all the world like he’s kicking left, have 9 teammates on the left side pretending it’s coming that way, and then at the last minute the kicker changes direction and kicks right, to his sole teammate on that side of the field. Would that play have a chance? Instead of 10 guys fighting 11 guys, you might get 1 on 2 or 1 on 3. But with fewer defensive hands in the area, I’d think you’d have a better chance to either find a hole between them. either find a hole between them or have one of them muff it. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/10 "2005-12-05T20:28:14Z")
I looked up the NFL fair catch rules, and they support what’s been said. But there are some strange things in there: > [@](#): > > 1. No opponent may interfere with the fair catcher, the ball, or his path to the ball. > 2. If ball hits ground or is touched by member of kicking team in flight, fair catch signal is off and all rules for a kicked ball apply. So we have a rule that says the kicking team may not touch the ball and then one saying that if they do, the fair catch is off??? > [@](#): > > 1. If time expires while ball is in play and a fair catch is awarded, receiving team may choose to extend the period with one fair catch kick down. However, placekicker may not use tee. So if with 4 seconds remaining a team punts, it sounds as if the receiving team can elect to attempt a field goal (though they may not use a kicking tee). Has anyone ever seen this? ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/11 "2005-12-05T20:45:32Z")
I watched an ESPN presentation of NFL Films that dealt with “odd” formations and plays (e.g., single wing, onside kicks, etc.) The kickers interviewed said that the key was to drill the ball downward into the ground straight off the tee with the foot. This resulted in a good high bounce where the kicking team could get under the ball, but eliminated the possibility of a fair catch because the ball has hit the ground. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/12 "2005-12-05T20:56:14Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I always thought for an onside kick I’d have the kicker look for all the world like he’s kicking left, have 9 teammates on the left side pretending it’s coming that way, and then at the last minute the kicker changes direction and kicks right, to his sole teammate on that side of the field. Would that play have a chance? Instead of 10 guys fighting 11 guys, you might get 1 on 2 or 1 on 3. But with fewer defensive hands in the area, I’d think you’d have a better chance to either find a hole between them. This is also done occasionally. Some kickers are able use more or less their usual approach to the ball, but at the last second, kind of squib it in the opposite direction of their run-up. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/13 "2005-12-05T21:13:04Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I always thought for an onside kick I’d have the kicker look for all the world like he’s kicking left, have 9 teammates on the left side pretending it’s coming that way, and then at the last minute the kicker changes direction and kicks right, to his sole teammate on that side of the field. Would that play have a chance? Instead of 10 guys fighting 11 guys, you might get 1 on 2 or 1 on 3. But with fewer defensive hands in the area, I’d think you’d have a better chance to either find a hole between them. The Bengals tried this against the Colts a couple of weeks ago. They nearly recovered it but a penalty forced a rekick and they just went with the standard play on the rekick. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/14 "2005-12-05T21:31:35Z")
I’ve seen the fair-catch free kick field goal attempted once. It missed. I believe it was Ray Wersching of San Francisco who tried it. It’s a very odd thing to see. I think it’s hard for the kicker in a sense because the ball isn’t snapped. I think it’s hard for the guy to get his timing right. The Cowboys under Parcells actually practice the play. ---
**Author:** ![aktep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f0a364/32.png) [@aktep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aktep)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/15 "2005-12-05T21:45:36Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > So we have a rule that says the kicking team may not touch the ball and then one saying that if they do, the fair catch is off??? Most likely, the actual rule is that the fair catch is off if the ball is \* muffed \* by the recieving team – ie, touched but not caught. > [@Xema](#): > > So if with 4 seconds remaining a team punts, it sounds as if the receiving team can elect to attempt a field goal (though they may not use a kicking tee). Has anyone ever seen this? This is a peculiar rule that the NFL has kept (and maybe high schools – I thought they dropped it but maybe not.) It harkens back to American football’s roots as a cousin of Rugby. It’s not necessary for time to end on the play, but if time does run out, the period will be extended for the kick. The teams must line up 10 yards apart (as in a kickoff) so it gives the opportunity to attempt a field goal unmolested. [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_catch_kick) indicates it was tried by the Tennessee Titans just this season against the Texans. Before that, there were two successful attempts in the 60s. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/16 "2005-12-05T21:51:47Z")
> [@BobT](#): > > I’ve seen the fair-catch free kick field goal attempted once. It missed. I believe it was Ray Wersching of San Francisco who tried it. It’s a very odd thing to see. I think it’s hard for the kicker in a sense because the ball isn’t snapped. I think it’s hard for the guy to get his timing right. The Cowboys under Parcells actually practice the play. How long of a kick did Wersching attempt? Seems that a fair catch of a punt that resulted in decent field-goal position would be pretty rare. I guess I can imagine a less-than-perfect punt from a punter deep in the endzone might result in a FC around the 30-35 yd line. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/17 "2005-12-05T22:05:04Z")
I think Wersching’s attempt was in the upper end of the 50-yard range. He didn’t come close. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/18 "2005-12-05T22:59:55Z")
> [@](#): > > How long of a kick did Wersching attempt? Seems that a fair catch of a punt that resulted in decent field-goal position would be pretty rare. I guess I can imagine a less-than-perfect punt from a punter deep in the endzone might result in a FC around the 30-35 yd line. It’s not entirely unknown for a strong legged kick off guy to hit a field goal on the kick off. It’s worth nothing more than a normal kick back, but it shows they can have the leg to hit it from the other 35 if they don’t have to worry about rushers in their face. Of course there is the specific restriction against taking the free kick from a tee, for that reason(those extra couple inches of the tee make a huge difference in how far you can kick). That reminds me of a question of my own. Is there any rule that says a holder must put the ball on the ground? I remember when we played backyard ball the holder would stick his foot out and try to put the ball on top of his extended toes to give a tee effect. I’d imagine it would nearly impossible with the speed of pro-ball, and just another thing to screw up, but is it actually illiegal. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/19 "2005-12-05T23:06:26Z")
> [@](#): > > How long of a kick did Wersching attempt? Seems that a fair catch of a punt that resulted in decent field-goal position would be pretty rare. I guess I can imagine a less-than-perfect punt from a punter deep in the endzone might result in a FC around the 30-35 yd line. It’s not entirely unknown for a strong legged kick off guy to hit a field goal on the kick off. It’s worth nothing more than a normal kick back, but it shows they can have the leg to hit it from the other 35 if they don’t have to worry about rushers in their face. Of course there is the specific restriction against taking the free kick from a tee, for that reason(those extra couple inches of the tee make a huge difference in how far you can kick). That reminds me of a question of my own. Is there any rule that says a holder must put the ball on the ground? I remember when we played backyard ball the holder would stick his foot out and try to put the ball on top of his extended toes to give a tee effect. I’d imagine it would nearly impossible with the speed of pro-ball, and just another thing to screw up, but is it actually illiegal. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222/20 "2005-12-05T23:13:57Z")
> [@aktep](#): > > Most likely, the actual rule is that the fair catch is off if the ball is \* muffed \* by the recieving team – ie, touched but not caught. That would seem to make sense, but I checked a couple of other sources and they both have the rule as I quoted it: “If ball hits ground or is touched by member of **kicking team** in flight, fair catch signal is off …” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-football-question/334222.md?page=2)