# Pro Giuliani group co-chair says we should get rid of all Muslims **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 30, 2007, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655 "2007-12-30T01:08:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/41 "2007-12-30T07:24:57Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] So the fuck what? Do you think resigning magically changed his mind about Muslims? Do you think all those people “cosigning” on the blog are just isolated idiots, or that there could be more like them, lusting for Muslim blood? [/quote] I think they are in much smaller proportion than Islamists are to the rest of Islam. Remember Giuliani Partners biggest client was Qatar, and the Emir of Qatar just bought a large stake in it. > [@](#): > > So why the fuck are you lecturing me about the differences if you’re so against both? Death by bomb, bullet, or bulldozer, it’s ALL THE SAME. It’s taking a people and obliterating them. That’s evil. Because they are different. Rape is not murder, they are both evil, but not the same. > [@](#): > > Actually, all I said was they were the Jews of the 21st Century. You chose to stretch the analogy and take it places I didn’t intend it to. Look, I can’t help it if the first thing that came to mind after reading the quote in the OP was “Holocaust”. Really, all you have to do is replace “Muslim” with “Jew” and it sounds Hitleresque. I know it’s considered gauche to Godwinize around here, but come on. If you can’t Godwinize in a thread like this one, WHEN THE HELL CAN YOU. Except that Deady is an idiot who lost his job over what he said. Hitler was the leader of a nation who was able to accomplish his plans. You didn’t Godwinize. You didn’t compare the man to Hitler, you compared the Muslims to the Jews. I don’t care if you want to call the man a Nazi. Muslims are not oppressed in this nation. Victims of ethnocentrism, sure, but they are not being systematically annihilated. > [@](#): > > Do you know what an analogy is? I hope you’re not one of those stupid individuals who believes two situations have to be identical in every way before an analogy can be drawn. I mean, when John Lennon said “Woman is the nigger of the world” your mind must have 'ploded. No, I don’t think the analogy has to be perfect. In this case, it’s simply wrong. Jews: victims of a systematic attempt at genocide. Muslims: not the victims of a systematic attempt at genocide. Do you see what I’m trying to get at here? > [@](#): > > No one is committing genocide against the Jews today either. No, but heads of state do call for it and in certain countries they have rallies advocating it openly. Can you please point out when the last time you saw a ‘Death to Islam’ rally in an American city? Also, I don’t think I am the only person who thought that you were implying a holocaust comparison. > [@](#): > > I’m not going to raise the ante on this argument by mentioning Israel, but–oops!–I just did. > > Lots of people have good reason to believe that Israel’s actions have skirted dangerously close to ethnic cleansing. They haven’t brought out the bleach (yet), but the Cascade they’ve been scouring the countertop with sure has been abrasive. But this isn’t here or there since the Jew’s moral purity is irrelevant. All Nations have their sins, none is perfect, but we aren’t talking about the perfection of states, but a comparison to a systematic cleansing of an entire people. > [@](#): > > I’d like for you to explain better why you think that’s a valid point, especially since you keep saying you don’t think Muslims deserve to die or be removed. Are you saying that Muslims–not just the scary Muslims you see on the TV but _all_ Muslims–are genocidal? That they aren’t as good or nice as the Jews and therefore they don’t deserve sympathy when a jerk calls for their removal? IThe only thing I can extract from this is that you think killing them is bad, but hating them–even the innocent ones–is fine and perfectly justifiable. I’m trying to figure you out. I’m saying that Islam is a warlike religion, and it is naive to think otherwise when it’s written pretty plainly in the Koran. They deserve sympathy certainly, but this is one guy who lost his job over it as compared to the Jews who were actually the victims of genocide. I do not hate Muslims as a matter of course, but pretending that they share the same morals that you do is naive. In some ways I admire Muslim morals, like their stance on usury. Our entire society is built upon usury. This is an example, and not even a negative one, of how their morals are different from ours. Sharia law is not compatible with our system. Islam cannot tolerate a separation of church and state, but has a way of accounting for when the Muslim is the Dhimmi in a foreign state, it’s called dissimulation. > [@](#): > > And those are some lame-ass points. Next. Ok, well other than not actually being the victims of Genocide, yeah, they’re exactly like the Jews. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/42 "2007-12-30T07:26:09Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Yes, we’ve already established the “Muslims deserve it” theme to your posts in this thread. We’ve now also demonstrated that you don’t understand the purpose of analogies. I don’t think there’s really anything further that needs to be covered, is there? [/QUOTE] Oh really? I thought analogies were for comparing two things that are similar. I’m sorry I was so misguided. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/43 "2007-12-30T07:35:26Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] Let’s be honest. Mr. Deady’s doesn’t hate Muslims because of female circumcision or Dafur. Those things happened for years without people saying nary o’ peep. He and those commentors hate Muslims because of 911. The other stuff is just icing on the cake. [/quote] Deady’s an idiot, no doubt about it. Not just for what he said, but for not realizing that his boss’s buddies are the ruling faction in Qatar. You’re probably right, I doubt he cares about Darfur or female circumcision. > [@](#): > > If taking innocent lives justifies hate and calls for extermination, then no wonder people hate Americans and want to see us die. Some crazy people steal some commercial jetliners and kill a few thousand people. Some other crazy people drop a few thousand bombs on an entire country, killing tens of thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands). One is called terrorism. The other is called “shock and awe”. One is supposedly an act of evil, the other is praised as a bold, fully justifiable act of war, the fist of freedom and liberty and democracy. I just don’t know. Islamist cultures do have some horrid things to account for, but America–in this place and time–ain’t no angel. We have no right to be taking some moral highground and acting like the world’s sole enemy speaks Arabic and prays to Allah. Hey, people hate America for some legitimate reasons. I don’t deny that at all. The Iraq war was stupid and arrogant. I have some real issues with American foreign policy over the years, and I think we should be engaging Iran rather than trying to isolate them. The fact of the matter is though, America is nowhere near being genocidal, not even close. I kind of resent the implication that it is. It’s not the fucking same, it just simply isn’t. You wanna call Deady a Nazi, go ahead, but at least recognize that he lost his job over it, he wasn’t promoted to Reichsmarshall or somesuch. I think Giuliani is an evil man, but I don’t think that even he would be genocidal. That’s the difference between how America treats Muslims and how practically the entire world treated the Jews in the twentieth. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/44 "2007-12-30T07:39:06Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Oh really? I thought analogies were for comparing two things that are similar. [/QUOTE] No, that’s not quite it. An analogy is where you compare two different things, and try to find points of similarity, so as to illuminate some facet of one of the things being compared. Naturally, the two things are going to have a great many differences, because they are, after all, two different things. Pointing out those differences and using them as a basis to declare it a “bad analogy” entirely misses the point of an analogy in the first place. If the two things being compared were the same in all respects, then there would be no point in making the comparison at all, would there? In this case, **monstro** was clearly comparing Muslims and Jews as popular targets for racist demogougery. The fact that, for example, such demogougery was much more succesful against one group than it has been against the other is immaterial to the analogy she was making, as she wasn’t comparing the _effects_ of the demogougery, merely the practice of it. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry I was so misguided. Well, now you know better, and can avoid making the same mistake in the future. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/45 "2007-12-30T07:45:41Z")
**Miller** Ok, so then ‘Americans: The Jews of the 21st Century.’ is an apt analogy since people in Islamic countries burn our leaders in effigy on a regular basis while chanting ‘Death to America!’ Or ‘Malaysian Democrats: The Jews of the 21st Century’, since the government is trying very hard to oppress them. Or ‘Narco Traffickers: The Jews of the 21st Century’, as they are being oppressed and killed by governments everywhere for pursuing their business interests. Or ‘Darfurian Christians: The Jews of the 21st Century’, because they are actually the fucking victims of genocide who could be helped but again the world sits by idly and does nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/46 "2007-12-30T07:51:20Z")
Nope, still not getting it. Might not be any hope for you on this one, **mswas**. Probably best for you to avoid the topic of analogies altogether. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/47 "2007-12-30T07:57:30Z")
Really, **mswas** , it seems you’re taking great pains to prove the exact point I brought up earlier, about requiring a situation to be exactly like the Holocaust in order to register a “That’s fucked up”. I never said that the Muslims were presently being exterminated (although looking at Iraq, well…). You keep trumping this out like it proves something. In 1907, the Jews hadn’t been exterminated either. But doesn’t Deady’s comment sound like something a 1907 Adolf Hitler would say? > [@](#): > > No, but heads of state do call for it and in certain countries they have rallies advocating it openly. Can you please point out when the last time you saw a ‘Death to Islam’ rally in an American city? Also, I don’t think I am the only person who thought that you were implying a holocaust comparison. I _was_ implying a holocaust comparison. That and only that. You were the one who went back into the annals of history and mentioned the 9000 years of oppression thing. You’re also the one who has compared and contrasted one group’s moral activities with the other, as if I was saying anything more than “Wow. Deady sure sounds like Hitler”. You’re right. There are no rallies calling for Death to Muslims, though I’m certain those KKK rallies are doing a great deal of anti-Muslim grousing. But to beat this analogy further into the ground, I’m wondering if Germans were really marching in the streets thirty years before WWII. While I’m sure there were some loud anti-Semites standing on soapboxes, I’m thinking people didn’t get on the bullhorn until later. Maybe until it became acceptable to say things that everyone had only been thinking previously. Do you want us to wait till blood is running in the streets before we get concerned? Lemme tell you, when they’re hearding innocent children into Guantamo Bay, then it’s too late to go Godwinizing. At that point, the ship will have already sailed. The tragedy of the Holocaust didn’t start at Auswitz. It started when Hitler got his first round of applause and people started saying: > [@](#): > > he was the one who had it right Yeah, Deady’s career with Guiliani is quite dead-y. Let’s hope he doesn’t get it in his head to run for office anytime soon. He might just win. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/48 "2007-12-30T08:04:54Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] I _was_ implying a holocaust comparison. That and only that. You were the one who went back into the annals of history and mentioned the 9000 years of oppression thing. [/QUOTE] Looking back through the thread, I saw that you did not do this. Don’t know why I thought this. Apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/49 "2007-12-30T08:05:04Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] Lemme tell you, when they’re hearding innocent children into Guantamo Bay, then it’s too late to go Godwinizing. [/QUOTE] Cite for the innocent children in Guantamo, please. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/50 "2007-12-30T08:06:16Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] 1. No one is committing genocide against Muslims [/QUOTE] Not currently. But rather recently there is the case of Bosnia. The claims mix in “ethnic cleansing” which you regard as a seperate matter, but does include some directed massacres, Srebenica of course being the most prominent: > **[Bosnian genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Genocide)** > > The Bosnian genocide\[b\] took place during the Bosnian War of 1992–1995 and includes the Srebrenica massacre of July 1995 or the wider crimes against humanity and ethnic cleansing campaign perpetrated throughout areas controlled by the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS). The events in Srebrenica in 1995 included the killing of more than 8,000 Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) men and boys, as well as the mass expulsion of another 25,000–30,000 Bosniak civilians by VRS units under the command of General R Th... ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/51 "2007-12-30T08:06:55Z")
> [@Carol Stream](#): > > Cite for the innocent children in Guantamo, please. :rolleyes: Let’s exterminate the idiots now. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/52 "2007-12-30T08:11:40Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Or ‘Darfurian Christians: The Jews of the 21st Century’, because they are actually the fucking victims of genocide who could be helped but again the world sits by idly and does nothing. [/QUOTE] The violence in Darfur is Muslim on Muslim. Far as I know there are no significant Christian populations in the western Sudan. The Christians are in the south, which if not _entirely_ quiescent recently, has nonetheless been calm by comparison. If a genocide is being perpetrated in Darfur ( and there is some evidence that there is ), it is not religious in nature, but rather political/tribal/cultural. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/53 "2007-12-30T08:11:52Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] Cite for the innocent children in Guantamo, please. [/QUOTE] She wasn’t saying they were there _now_, she was putting that forward as a future hypothetical to be avoided. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/54 "2007-12-30T08:24:02Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] She wasn’t saying they were there _now_, she was putting that forward as a future hypothetical to be avoided. [/QUOTE] Uh huh. What’s the point of arguing “future hypotheticals”? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/55 "2007-12-30T08:35:36Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] Uh huh. What’s the point of arguing “future hypotheticals”? [/QUOTE] So, you don’t see a point in speculating on the possible outcomes of current trends and/or policies? I guess that explains a lot about your politics. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/56 "2007-12-30T09:31:07Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] Cite for the innocent children in Guantamo, please. [/QUOTE] [US detains children at Guantanamo Bay](http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,941876,00.html). That’s one story, there are quite a few others. I don’t recall if Congress ever got around to investigating the claims that they were raped and/or tortured. I doubt they bothered. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/57 "2007-12-30T10:41:42Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] I have to do to a random sampling of an entire group of people in order to say something about the _people I know_? [/quote] Now, you know I didn’t say that. What I said, again, is that all you did was reveal how few people you actually do know among the group. > [@](#): > > Even though my point is simply they don’t deserve to die. I must admit that that was a surprise. I had no idea that you were connecting moral terpitude and deserving to live or die. You might be surprised to learn that according to some Muslims (and Christians as well) you are morally bankrupt. > [@](#): > > Your “assault” doesn’t make a bit o’ sense, man. I think it does. I think it makes sense that if you live among a large number of predominately Christians (or Muslims or Jews or atheists), you will find yourself annoyed primarily by Christians (or Muslims or Jews or atheists). ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/58 "2007-12-30T13:26:02Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] [US detains children at Guantanamo Bay](http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,941876,00.html). That’s one story, there are quite a few others. I don’t recall if Congress ever got around to investigating the claims that they were raped and/or tortured. I doubt they bothered. [/QUOTE] They were “active combatants against US forces”. Again, where is the cite for innocent children being held at Gitmo? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/59 "2007-12-30T13:37:44Z")
It must be nice to have such faith in the armed forces to believe them incapable of capturing someone who wasn’t a genuine terrorist. Without ever having to bring charges, without having to allow them legal representation, without having to observe the Geneva Convention, what is to prevent the US from giving an innocent person a de facto sentence of life with torture? Nothing. Bigotry has been a proven winner in Republican politics. Ghouliani has exploited it more than most, but since Nixon’s Southern Strategy it has been part of the political landscape. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2007, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655/60 "2007-12-30T14:23:52Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] They were “active combatants against US forces”. Again, where is the cite for innocent children being held at Gitmo? [/QUOTE] They have yet to be charged, tried and convicted. What’s _your_ definition of “innocent”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-giuliani-group-co-chair-says-we-should-get-rid-of-all-muslims/431655.md?page=4)