[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
Where were they captured, then, Woodfield Mall?
[/QUOTE]
Handed to us by paid informers, business/political rivals, or just grabbed because they looked funny. If anything, they are probably less likely to be terrorists than some random guy on the street, since I expect the terrorists would be pointing out other people they don’t like as terrorists to us and taking our money.
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
Where were they captured, then, Woodfield Mall?
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Handed to us by paid informers, business/political rivals, or just grabbed because they looked funny. If anything, they are probably less likely to be terrorists than some random guy on the street, since I expect the terrorists would be pointing out other people they don’t like as terrorists to us and taking our money.
[/QUOTE]
Children are business/political rivals in Afghanistan? Because that was the original claim, that “innocent children” were being imprisoned in Gitmo.
There has not been an honest cite for that, and I don’t expect one to be forthcoming. The wailing and gnashing of teeth over Gitmo is purely leftist propaganda, nothing more.
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
Children are business/political rivals in Afghanistan? Because that was the original claim, that “innocent children” were being imprisoned in Gitmo.
There has not been an honest cite for that, and I don’t expect one to be forthcoming. The wailing and gnashing of teeth over Gitmo is purely leftist propaganda, nothing more.
[/QUOTE]
McCarthy would be proud of you.
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
The wailing and gnashing of teeth over Gitmo is purely leftist propaganda, nothing more.
[/QUOTE]
Heh. Leftist propaganda. Who told you that, Whittaker Chambers?
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
In all seriousness, I just think that most people in general (not just Americans) are reflexively tribalistic, xenophobic and not very thoughtful.
[/QUOTE]
True dat. One interesting poll result from John Mace’s link is that 25% of Americans think there should be mass detentions of Muslims in America in the event of another 9/11-style attack. 1 in 4 Americans, people. And that’s before any actual attack has happened, and after people have had several years to cool off after 9/11. In the actual event of another 9/11, I guarantee you that the 25% would become much higher. Don’t kid yourselves that Americans give too much of a shit about other people’s liberty or humanity. When the shit hits the fan, the moral platitudes vanish in a wave of tribalism.
I’m not sure Americans are unique in this respect. But people need to give up on the myth of American exceptionalism.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
McCarthy would be proud of you.
[/QUOTE]
Is this Board about fighting ignorance, or is it a leftist echochamber?
n.b. you can’t have it both ways.
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
Is this Board about fighting ignorance, or is it a leftist echochamber?
[/QUOTE]
Either way you’re screwed, eh?
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
Is this Board about fighting ignorance, or is it a leftist echochamber?
n.b. you can’t have it both ways.
[/QUOTE]
Cut the crap, Carol. I know for a fact that this has been brought up in many threads over the years. It wouldn’t take much effort at all to find out how many times you’ve been given the information that most of the “enemy combatants” weren’t captured on any battlefield, but you just keep parroting the same right-wing propaganda as if this information has never been brought up before. Forget Joe McCarthy-you are more of a Charlie McCarthy.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Are you saying we should declare them to be “Prisoners of War”, with all rights given by the Geneva Conventions? Hell, I’m all for that! Sorry I misunderstood ya, buddy.
[/QUOTE]
To be honest I don’t know why the administration is reticent to make that declaration given they’ve declared to observe the convention in the case of both Taliban and al Qaida. So they might not have the rights recognized but they are treated as having those rights. If their confinement can be characterized as deficient wrt the Geneva convention for POWs please inform me.
The difference? With one, the rights are guaranteed. With the other, there are no rights, just privileges that can be rescinded when we feel that somebody needs some torturin’. FYI, The Geneva convention frowns on torture.
Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
Where were they captured, then, Woodfield Mall?
[/QUOTE]
They were mostly bought for bounties. They were random civilians snatched off the street. That’s not “propaganda,” it’s an established fact.
Even if they had been captured on a battlefield (which they weren’t), they would be entitled to POW status. Your Nazi monkey overlord has consistantly denied they are either military combatants or innocent civilians and has instead invented a non-existent and tautologicaly defined fake category called “unlawful combatants,” a designation which requires no standard of proof and offers no opportunity for the accused to prove his innocence. Gitmo is a fucking gulag, man.
On the other hand, I live in Henry Hyde’s old district, a hotbed of Republicanism if there ever was one, and a Muslim group recently bought a billboard advertising their faith, it is raised directly above an Indian restaurant, and it has yet to be defaced. I’m rather pleased with that, in a sad way.
OT yet another H, I recall working with an asshole (this wasn’t the only proof of it) who was trying to start a fight between an Indian Hindu and a Pakistani Muslim by asking them if they weren’t supposed to hate each other. They agreed that, “We came here to get away from that shit.”
[QUOTE=mswas]
monstro I never made any Muslim generalizations based upon the Muslims I know. I stated what is easily verifiable, that in the Koran Mohammed called for violent conversion as a tactic when the Muslim population is strong, and dissimulation within the populace when the Muslim population is weak. It’s not a generalization, its in the Koran.
https://www.melbourne.anglican.com.au/main.php?pg=news&news_id=2014&s=1041
[/quote]
bolding mine
So having embarked on a mission of proselytization, Mohammed came under attack and was encouraged by God to defend himself. Following which, later Muslims pointed to that passage in the Qur’an as a justification to take up arms defensively, and you twist it around to claim that it is an authorization to convert by the sword and even quote passages in support of your position that clearly do not say what you claim for them?
The Qur’an does NOT support forced conversions. You have it wrong. (Which is not a claim that there have never been coerced conversions–there clearly have been–but those have been historic incidents based on individual situations that have not been supported by the Qur’an.)
[QUOTE=mswas]
The SDMB is fairly highly representative of the American left I would say, with . . . moderate like tomndebb.
[/QUOTE]
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
The Qur’an does NOT support forced conversions.
[/QUOTE]
Tripe. 
The statement from the Koran that there should be “no compulsion in religion” is often cited by apologists to show that Islam does not employ force. There are other verses that have not been abrogated, such as:
usc.edu: Sura 8: 12
And:
usc.edu: Sura 2: 191
More compulsion in:
usc.edu: Sura 9: 29
Then there are the hadiths on which most of what is referred to as Islamic Law is based. Hadiths such as the following reinforce the rightness of forced conversion.
From Bukhari:
usc.edu: Vol1, Book 8, 378
Ibid:
usc.edu: Vol1, Book 2, 24
Muslim:
url=http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/001.smt.html#001.0033] usc.edu: Book 1, 33
There are numerous examples of how a Muslim is supposed to fight disbelievers until they submit or convert, such as:
usc.edu: Book 19, 4294
If a person exists under a constant threat of death, or worse, for not subscribing to a particular belief system it is not possible to maintain, on rational grounds, that no compulsion is involved somewhere in that bigoted brew.
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
While I tend to agree with you, I also wonder what perception of Americans is espoused by rank-and-file Muslims (whatever that may mean) outside the U.S. I suspect it is similarly skewed, and for similar reasons.
[/QUOTE]
Not at all, surprisingly Pro in my experience. Not that GWB is any success as a pop idol. But the US as a whole, very Pro. Although I have noticed a lot of complaints about obtaining visas and other immigration issues.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
In all seriousness, I just think that most people in general (not just Americans) are reflexively tribalistic, xenophobic and not very thoughtful. The perception among rank and file Americans that Muslims are all wild eyed, backpack bombing zealots who want to kill “infidels” is depressingly pervasive. They aren’t very amenable to education about it either. They don’t want to have to read or have to actually think about anything. They are very complacent in their self-perceived moral superiority and “America, fuck yeah” assumptions and don’t want to be shaken from them.
It isn’t hard to get people to go along with the dehumanization and genocide of other groups of people. Read Hitler’s Willing Executioners. Americans aren’t so different.
[/QUOTE]
You’re jumping back and forth between generalizations about “people” and about “Americans”. So, yeah, there isn’t anything special about Americans-- we’re just as human as any other group. As we’ve seen throughout history, any population seems capable of dehumanizing another population. But in the modern world, that seems to happen primarily when a population is beaten down or threatened, and if the restraining elements of civil society break down. That just isn’t happening in the US.
There is no charismatic leader preaching hatred of another group.
The economy isn’t threatened in any significant way.
The rule of law and the hold of the constitution is still strong.
If the US were to fall apart, then I can see Americans acting like we’ve seen people act in other similar situations-- Yugoslavia, Iraq. But we’re sooooo far away from something like that happening. And if we’re not under any real threat by Islamic terrorists (as you like to keep reminding us, Dio), then we are not under any real threat of falling apart and descending into barbarism.
[QUOTE=Aquila Be]
Tripe.
The statement from the Koran that there should be “no compulsion in religion” is often cited by apologists to show that Islam does not employ force. There are other verses that have not been abrogated, such as:
usc.edu: Sura 8: 12
And:
usc.edu: Sura 2: 191
More compulsion in:
usc.edu: Sura 9: 29
Then there are the hadiths on which most of what is referred to as Islamic Law is based. Hadiths such as the following reinforce the rightness of forced conversion.
From Bukhari:
usc.edu: Vol1, Book 8, 378
Ibid:
usc.edu: Vol1, Book 2, 24
Muslim:
url=http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/001.smt.html#001.0033] usc.edu: Book 1, 33
There are numerous examples of how a Muslim is supposed to fight disbelievers until they submit or convert, such as:
usc.edu: Book 19, 4294
If a person exists under a constant threat of death, or worse, for not subscribing to a particular belief system it is not possible to maintain, on rational grounds, that no compulsion is involved somewhere in that bigoted brew.
[/QUOTE]
*But these mine enemies, that would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. *
-Luke 19:27
That was Jesus speaking.
It’s easy to cherry pick quotes and distort them and misrep[resent them in order to demonize someone else’s religion. Islam does not support forced conversion and neither does the Koran . The stuff you quoted is all meant defensively and “unbelievers” does not include Christians or Jews anyway.
Instead of twisting someone else’s scripture that you don’t understand, why don’t you actually ask a few Muslims if they want to kill non-Muslims or if that’s anything they’ve ever been taught to do.
The Bible has some pretty appalling stuff in it. It tells parents to kill disobedient children, to kill “witches,” to kill people who work on the sabbath, to kill babies and pregnant women if their ancestors threw rocks at you 400 years ago. The list goes on but it would be stupid to therefore surmise that either Jews or Christians (well, most Christians anyway) actually want to do any of that stuff.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
You’re jumping back and forth between generalizations about “people” and about “Americans”.
[/quote]
There is no “back and forth.” Americans are people, aren’t they? I do think they are brainwashed into a special kind of arrogance and entitlement that doesn’t exits in ost other countries, though.
I beg to differ.
On the contrary, there are several. Watch Fox News. Listen to the radio.
I agree that the lack of economic pressure is the only thing that has stopped Americans from building death camps so far.
Is this a joke?
I don’t think we are under any real threat of that right now, but I do think that all the other elements are in place if the populace is ver subjected to any serious economic pressures.