"Pro-life" and "pro-choice" are both stupid expressions

Oh, good grief. By the same measure, if I verbally stop a child on the playground from hitting another child (something I do on a weekly basis), it is remotely possible that my sudden shout will startle the child and cause a fatal brain aneurysm. If you use a ridiculous definition, my shout has become lethal force.

That’s not how anyone defines lethal force. Lethal force is defined as a force that can be reasonably expected to be lethal. Duh.

I have NOT accepted that I might kill someone to remove them from my home, except inasmuch as any action, including typing this message, might conceivably result in death. You’re conflating a reducto ad absurdem line of argument with a rational line of argument. Unless you back way the hell up and get back into rational argument, I don’t see the point in continuing.

Daniel

Hey, you said:

through the use of that force, not through the intervention of an unlikely and unpredictable medical condition. You’re backpedalling because you see where the argument is going - if it’s potentially justifiable to cause the death of someone in defense of your home. how can it not be potentially justifiable to cause the death of someone in defense of your body?

I have my doubts about your magical ability to decide exactly how much force is enough to remove someone with no reasonable expectation of being lethal. Say you give one of the intruders a little nudge to move him along. Instead of docilely doing so, he pushes back. Will you now give up and accept his presence, or do you push harder? Somewhere along the way, if you’re determined to remove him and he’s determined to not be removed, and neither of you gives up, the level of force is going to climb into the potentially lethal zone (for one or both of you) and there is no magic red warning light that will flash when you reach this stage.

Then your home, frankly, can be effectively taken from you by anyone with a sufficient amount of determination. Of course, you could call the cops and they could show up with their “nonlethal” methods, which nevertheless result in people occasionally dying, so if you absolutely don’t want to accept the possibility of a dead intruder, you may as well leave the cops out of it and deal with the situation as best you can.

Good luck with that. Maybe he’ll get bored and wander off on his own.

That’s* not* a 1% increase in risk. That’s a 100% increase in risk.

What “risk” is being assumed if the possibility of abortion exists?

Note to self: If invited on spaceship by Bryan Ekers, politely decline.

We needn’t beat this to death any further on my account, but since you asked…first of all, it was a ship that could permit a stowaway. Second of all, you qualified the analogy, or so it obviously seemed to me, to set aside any concerns related to risk or inconvenience. If one is jettisoning young Timmy on account of eye color, presumably “oxygen is running low” isn’t a great concern.

No, clearly others’ right to live are in play at that point. Isn’t that obvious? Look, it appears you think I have this bright, clear line for issues like these. I don’t. There are often ambiguous, complex scenarios without clear conclusions.

Before I’d kill him? Well, I’m a big guy myself. The best answer I can give you is I’d continue to try to subdue without deadly force him until I thought I was in grave danger. Within the actual scenario, I’m sure it would be a complicated decision to arrive at, and I’m not certain I’d be happy with whatever I did.

I’ll say again, there are often not bright lines in ethical decisions. If someone makes a deliberate decision–aware, capable and understanding of the possible consequences of that decision–he should be prepared to deal with the consequences. If not, the scenario is more complicated, though clearly you’d prefer that it wasn’t (so would I).

Do you believe police deal with a toddler waiving a revolver differently than a murderer? Do you take exception with that distinction? I do not. It’s an issue of responsibility to at least some extent, not just outcome, I think any reasonable person would agree. But if what you’re trying to do is create a gotcha, I’ll try to save you the trouble. In any scenario where we’ve reduced responsibility to a complete irrelevancy by virtue of a grave danger that appears unavoidable and impossible to deal with “by degrees,” it is probably appropriate to eliminate that danger.

Here was the full quote:

Given than you truncated the quote to remove the second clause, and that that truncation is vital to your misrepresentation of my position, I’m concluding that you’re not debating honestly, and I’m done with you.

Daniel

Seems like that would be a tremendous risk, and certainly not one assumed, by the innocent party in question.

Ridiculous. There are enough qualifiers in my own text in that post (“potentially justifiable”, “reasonable expectation”, “potentially lethal”) that my understanding of your point is clear. “Non-zero possibility of lethality” is equivalent to “possibility of lethality”. Heck, I’ll concede that your mad homeowner skillz are such that no matter how burly or determined or hopped up on drugs a trespasser might be, you can remove him with a 0.0001% chance of lethal injury. I hope one-in-a-million is satisficatory. Now, someone comes along and says you don’t have to right to even do this much in defense of your home and person. How do you respond?

Or not, if you prefer to concede.

I’d say it was unreasonable. However, I fully agree with restrictions the greater the risk of death is relative to the potential injury or inconvenience being avoided. Must I be 100% sure I won’t kill an intruder into my home, assuming I decide to subdue him? Nope. Can I open fire on someone who gives me a meancing look on a dark street as he reaches into his jacket for something? No, I don’t think so.

Actually, if you were invited then I think there wouldn’t be any problem at all.
LilShieste

Don’t move the goalposts - I was specifically referring to the person you said was “deliberately assuming a risk”. I’m asking you what “risk” is it to them if the possibility of abortion exists. To me, it seems, with that possibility, the risk is minimal.

Also, I’d like a definition of innocent. Or, more correctly, I’d like a definition of what, exactly, the “non-innocent” half of the equation is “guilty” of.

If I may:

One of the aspects of a free society is that we are very hesitant to force individuals into situations (or keep individuals in such situations) where they must suffer and have no remedy for that suffering. We hesitate before instituting a military draft or mandatory military service (and even then, provide the possibility of various “outs” such as conscientious objector status). Though we must imprison criminals, our prisons do not have torture chambers (please spare me a Bush-related hijack) where we inflict additional suffering just for the hell of it. In granting individuals a degree of personal freedom and autonomy, we recognize that our individuals can make their own decisions and need not run to a government agency and the arbitrary decision of a bureaucrat to solve every problem, great or small.

If an individual dislikes his job, he has a remedy - he can quit and get a new one. If a marriage is unsatisfactory, the married couple can dissolve it. There was a time when, for some of the population at least, neither of these situations were escapable - being born into slavery or serfdom specifically prevented anyone from leaving an arduous job, under pain of death. Marriages were not dissolvable; a wife who was being beaten by her husband had no choice but to keep taking the abuse. Agents of the state would very much like to enter homes at will, but we recognize the value of protecting the individual from this intrusion and it is the state that must prove its need, not the individual.

This is critical - the individual does not have to provide reasons to the state for wishing to exercise a freedom. A man who quits his job need not explain his decision, though he may choose to do so if some sort of contractual penalty applies. With the advent of no-fault divorce, it is sufficient that a couple files some paperwork expressing their wish for a divorce, not their reasons for seeking it. A person who owns a home need not come up with reasons why the police cannot arbitrarily search it.

We recognize these freedoms and accept that whatever reason the individuals have, be they in the eyes of a casual observer fully justified one or fully frivolous one, the decision belongs to those individuals. Experience tells us that is reasons are demanded, with some reasons being unacceptable, individuals will simply learn what answer to give to the inquisitor that will satisfy him and prevent further interference. If forced to decide between continued suffering and a quick lie, individuals will lie. Which of the acceptable reasons is the most vague and difficult to prove or disprove? That is the one that will be claimed most often. Prior to no-fault divorce, when a specific misdeed on the part of one spouse was a required element, a common accusation was “mental cruelty”. Was it true? Can it be proven? Who knows? It was, however, the easiest hoop (or at least one of the easiest) to jump through to satisfy the authorities. As a result, it didn’t matter anymore if mental cruelty was actually happening to anyone, because anyone could claim it and many did (in his autobiography, The Ragman’s Son, Kirk Douglas describes using “mental cruelty” as the grounds to end his first marriage, deliberately chosen as the path of least resistance - I also suggest the wiki page on “no-fault divorce” for more immediate perusal).

Situations where an individual is being intruded upon by another require some care, of course. Is someone staring at you on a dark street an intrusion? I expect not, since that person’s right to be there is presumably equal to your own, and if you feel menaced, you are perfectly free to walk on. The person who was staring at you begins to walk in your direction. Is this an intrusion? Again, I expect not, since his right of movement is again equal to your own. At some point, you may feel menaced, especially if you walk faster and for some distance but the other person stays with you. You do not have the freedom to preemptively assault the stranger, and if you did, I fully expect any reasonable person would want the police or the courts to later examine the event and require you explain your reasoning, and the reasoning better be sound. In the situation described so far, you do not full freedom of action - the stranger’s rights remain equal to your own.

You get to your house and it’s at this point that the laws (in some venues, at least) begin to slide in your favour. During your public interaction with the stranger, you had the ability to withdraw if you felt threatened, and the legal norm was that you should withdraw (or at least try to) before taking violent action. Now, in your home, you don’t necessarily have to withdraw, even if it is possible. If the stranger enters without your consent, you can (again, exactly to what degree varies by venue) take violent action. Your intent is to remove the stranger from your house. Your reasons for wanting the stranger removed
are now irrelevant - you may feel your life is in danger, or not. You may feel your possessions are in danger, or not. You may want your privacy, or not. It doesn’t matter. The law recognizes your right to make the decisions and not be questioned on them. The circumstances may be open to question (i.e. did you invite the person in and then attack him?) but the fundamental right to exclude others from your home is not, nor are you required to put yourself at physical risk or discomfort during the exercise of this right.

Naturally enough, I would hope, the solution you choose involves the least necessary amount of violence and bloodshed. It may be enough to say “Hey, get out!” to make the stranger leave. Calling the police (or just saying that you’re calling them) may suffice. You might have to brandish a weapon. You might have to use it. While you later may have to answer a few questions about what happened, as the paramedics lift the stranger’s corpse onto a stretcher, you were not required to just sit back and accept the stranger’s intrusion. You could choose a remedy. Even in your home, of course, the law is not absolutely on your side, in that all remedies are equally acceptable. You will probably have to satisfy some legal standard of “reasonable”. No matter what, though, you have the right to choose to not share your home with the intruder. There are a myriad ways to serve this goal, some violent, others not, some involving police, others not, but the goal itself is unassailable and can’t be denied to you. The intruder may not have malicious intent. The intruder may be a mentally-ill adult or a lost child. No legal duty of protection attaches to the homeowner just because of this. A call to the police will likely solve the problem cleanly and easily (with the intruder hopefully returned to whatever custodial situation does have the duty of protection), but no matter how sympathetic the intruder is, the homeowner’s right of exclusion remains inviolate and he still need not explain why he wants this intruder out. It is enough that he does want the intruder out.

And then we come to abortion. If one has the right to remove an intruder from one’s home, I feel it follows that one has the right to remove an intruder from one’s body (essentially your “home”, reduced to its smallest set). That the intruder is a fetus, and thus to some people especially sympathetic, doesn’t eliminate the body-owner’s right of exclusion, nor need she put herself at risk or discomfort. Allowed to stay, the fetus will grow to impose a very considerable discomfort and burden on its host. As with the home-intruder, the owner is under no obligation to suffer this without remedy. At the moment, the only current remedies happen to be, as far as the fetus is concerned, lethal. This in no way removes the right of remedy (as I’ll call it) from the owner. There may come a time when nonlethal options exist. Great. Until then (and even then), I respect a woman’s right to choose because the alternative is and always has been far worse.

If the law was even-handed toward the strangers on the street (with no clearly definable intrusion at play) but biased in favour of the home-owner (where the intrusion is apparent), it must be even more so in favour of the uterus-owner (where the intrusion is even more extreme). Like it or not, a pregnancy (and later, a child) is a burden, despite notions of glorious motherhood and placing women on pedestals and such. There are some remedies in place once the child is born (adoption, newborn “drop-offs” at firehouses and such), but the remedy that is least stressful on the woman is a safe, quick, first-trimester abortion. She is (or at least should be) under no obligation to extend the pregnancy solely for the comfort of persons whose involvement in the situation barely rises to the level of irrelevant. As with the pre-no-fault divorces, if she must give a reason to satisfy the authorities, there is nothing stopping her from choosing the vaguest, most difficult to prove or disprove reason available. If rape is an acceptable reason, that is what she’ll claim. Being forced to carry a pregnancy and being forced to stay in a marriage and being forced to suffer a home intruder are all difficult burdens. Individuals can (and always have) found remedies to their problems and a society systematically eliminating these remedies in the name of a morality not all its citizens share simply invites the invention of workaround solutions that accomplish the same goal but with greater risk. Not allowed to tell strangers to leave your home? Buy a gun and shoot them on sight and make it look like self-defense. Want a divorce but can’t get one? Either lie in court or consider having your spouse killed. Safe abortion no longer available? Find one that’s not-so-safe, performed secretly by a sympathetic doctor, or nurse, or inserted coathanger.

Humans that find themselves in unwanted situations have a remarkable capacity for getting out of them. I have no illusions about pregnancy - which on the “potentially unwanted” scale for some people has to be pretty close to “terminal illness”. I don’t buy into the fiction that abortion is a recently-discovered sin or that it’s an industry marshaled by radical feminists or radical atheists (or radical anyone, really). I decline to be moved by appeals to emotion involving dead children. As far as I’m concerned, the only important person in the issue is the woman who wants as much safety and comfort in her body as I want in my home. The rights of the intruder are not compelling enough for me to give up my right of remedy. I see no reason she should give up hers.

As far as I can tell, there are no major logical leaps or errors in the above, though I acknowledge plenty of room for disagreement (and probably lots of valid charges of clumsy phrasing). I hope those who feel the woman’s choice must be taken from her understand why I can’t join them, and why I feel compelled to resist their efforts.

No, you’re moving the goalposts. Your question was a non sequitur, I can see now. I was asked a definition of an innocent–in a reference I made to the unborn. You may refer to whomever you want, but the innocent I was referring to has nothing to do with the person you seem to prefer I had referenced.

Innocent as I referenced it refers to someone who bears no responsibility for the circumstance he finds himself in. Didn’t choose it or influence the outcome in any deliberate or way.

Bryan, I for one do not dispute the rights you outline. I just don’t see it as so fundamental or inviolable that another right can’t trump it, particularly a right as fundamental as the right to live. Surely you can disagree but understand that viewpoint?

Bryan Ekers, I suspect that our customs and mores on the propriety of ejecting intruders are as they are precisely because, under ordinary circumstance, it is possible to do so without lethal force. The admissibility of lethal force in extremis does not invalidate this general rule. Under other circumstances - were we living in a desert or on a lunar colony - we might well stipulate that the unwanted guest may be deprived of many rights, that indeed he might be our slave from the mere fact of inflicting himself on us, but that he must not summarily be put out of the dwelling. Onerous for the householder? Possibly, but his sorrows are minor compared to the wrong that would be done to the intruder. Moreover, we would be still less willing to allow the forcible ejection of the intruder when nothing was more certain than that he must, whether he will or nill, vacate the premises of his own accord.

It will be time enough to speak of abortion as if it were merely the same as removing an intruder when such a procedure is feasible without resulting in death to the foetus. It is disingenuous to argue as if such were only an unfortunate side-effect of the procedure - particularly because you speak in the same breath of the inconvenience caused by the duty of care to the child that will result from the pregnancy. I incline to be of one mind with Portia on such an issue, who having judged that Shylock must take only a microscopically exact pound of bloodless flesh from nearest Antonio’s heart, further ruled the attempt to enforce his contract as a naked attempt on a Venetian citizen’s life; for, whatever words Shylock might dress it up in, it was patently impossible for the merchant to abide by his bond and survive.

That the denial of such a right might lead people to lie to gain their ends cannot be considered material; we do not ordinarily allow laws to be ignored simply because bad actors will take steps to circumvent them.

No, it wasn’t. Not in the slightest.

You don’t get to use contrast as a rhetorical device and then shy away from the relationship you reference. In your explanation, you referenced/contrasted said “innocent” with the person “deliberately assuming a risk” - and that’s the person I asked for clarity about. I didn’t say that that was the “innocent” you referred to, but I wanted clarity on the “risk” bit. I see you still haven’t answered the question, so I’ll re-ask it: for that person, what “risk” is being assumed when the possibility of abortion exists? Can you just answer that please?

That’s more clarity. I’d argue that the foetus is incapable of choosing anything, and therefore incapable of being “innocent” in any meaningful way.

Not that “innocence” trumps choice, in my book. I mean, by that same tack, food animals are “innocent” too. In fact, given the struggles I’ve seen animals put up with to avoid the slaughterer, I’d argue they could be said to be more sentient, more capable of choice, than a foetus. Is there a greater incidence of vegetarianism amongst pro-life people to account for this reverence for “innocence”? Or does the “innocence” matter more when it’s “human innocence”? In which case, a circular argument for the personhood of the foetus is only a few replies away.

I have more moral qualms over eating meat than I do over abortion.

Like the terms in the OP, ‘innocent’ is loaded. The fetus is innocent, the pregnant woman is not (because she had sex, possibly out of wedlock. Which is why some people think rape victims should be ‘let off the hook.’ They didn’t actively do anything wrong, so they shouldn’t be punished). Sometimes I think certain religions push women to give birth because they believe that whatever comes out of her – a boy or a virginal girl – will be better than her.

Thoughts such as these may comfort you, and give you something to fulminate against, but I have no problem with applying the word “innocent” to something that has done nothing deserving death, and it doesn’t need someone “less innocent” to contrast it against.

You really need me to acknowledge that abortion eliminates the risk of being pregnant? Really? That’s the important point you want to establish?

I guess it depends on your perspective. Based on the same facts, I’d say a fetus is not capable of being anything other than innocent.

I’m discussing human innocence.

I mulled over several ways to respond to this and all of them make me sound presumptuous. In short, I have to oppose your views because, if implemented, they would not accomplish your stated goals and indeed make the situation worse. I have no desire to oppose you personally. I’m sure whatever route you took to reach your current position on this issue seemed the best available. I had other routes open to me and they seem pretty good.

Well, we might stipulate anything we want. We might stipulate that all citizens must be happy, under threat of imprisonment, but this stipulation does nothing to solve the problem created by the unfortunate situation.

No, there’s no attempt at a disingenuous evasion on my part. The fetus dies, clearly. The pregnant woman wants not to have a child and abortion serves that end with, as far she’s concerned, minimal risk and difficulty. Having considered the issue carefully, I concluded that “the child that will result” is not a sufficiently large gain to society that this prerogative of the individual must be abridged. The society’s concern shouldn’t be primarily with merely boosting the numbers of its citizens, but improving their lives (which in turn will improve the society). As I understand it, there are perhaps 1.3 million abortions a year in the United States and about a tenth that many in Canada, giving these nations roughly comparable rates. Can you definitively point out the harm to society being caused by this? Crime rates, economic indicators, rates of illiteracy, parts-per-million of toxic pollutants, any reasonably well-defined statistic that you can plausibly claim is worse because of the relaxing attitude toward abortion over the last 30 years? I’m mildly curious if infants are being murdered at a higher rate than they used to, a common slippery-slope pro-choice argument. Official pages like this one only count homicide victims as young as twelve, but I’m sure somebody is keeping track.

Certainly there are times that having a child can be viewed unreservedly as a gift, especially to the person with the greatest physical and emotional involvement - its mother. It’s entirely unclear to me what benefit is served when the person with the greatest physical and emotional involvement doesn’t want the child, and is forced to have it anyway. Whatever moral calculus is involved in viewing this as a good thing escapes me. I’ll settle for a hard-headed rational analysis that indicates that forcing these children into existence against the will of the person who, our society still demands, be the person of greatest responsibility for the child once born. Were we in a Children of Men-type scenario where birthrates had tumbled to the point that the human race faced extinction, I can imagine society making such a demand (I can even imagine myself reluctantly supporting it). But our (i.e. the U.S. and Canada) infant mortality rates are low. Our birthrates, though lower than they once were, are nowhere near critical. We do not have a shortage of people. Why do we need so badly to get more people that we must deny the individual woman the choice to live out her life as she wants?

This isn’t some quibbling legal loophole being exploited by an amoral few. There were literally millions of citizens who wanted divorces at a time when getting one was time-consuming and bothersome (if permitted at all). There was no reason for these legal barriers, assuming as they did that adults must be treated like children and denied the right to make decisions that affected only themselves. Abortion is not as time-consuming and bothersome as it once was, because the value of keeping it so was similarly unclear. The people you describe as “bad actors” are ordinary citizens who wish to solve their problems and were being prevented from doing so by a legal structure that served no positive purpose. Divorce did not cause society to crumble (though some claimed it would) and abortion won’t, either. It is unclear to me what value is served by laws that, rather than punish criminals, turn ordinary citizens trying to live their lives into criminals. I would very much like for you to explain it to me, along with what kinds of laws you would like to see enforced, with what sort of penalties, and how effective you honestly believe such laws will be. Evidence suggests that banning abortion simply drives it underground, the rates barely (if at all) affected, but I’m prepared to entertain a new legal strategy that will, perhaps for the first time in human history, actually accomplish what a pro-lifer has in mind.