# Pro-life Atheists: An Argument to Oppose Abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-atheists-an-argument-to-oppose-abortion/800094 "2017-10-28T21:25:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![truthseeker3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@truthseeker3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthseeker3)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-atheists-an-argument-to-oppose-abortion/800094/201 "2017-11-18T20:47:21Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > I find it interesting that you bring up the conjoined twins analogy having just listened to an [NPR program](http://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2017/10/25/conjoined-twins-dilemma-mgh) that explored the ethical dilemma of the medical separation of African conjoined twins, one of whom had a serious illness that was also going to kill the healthy twin if they remained conjoined but would die without the function of shared organs. It was the classic trolley problem. It doesn’t really have anything to do with bodily autonomy, but nonetheless it does illustrate the difficult moral dilemmas of who lives and who dies and who gets to make those decisions. > > In any case, I am also in agreement that if there are going to be exceptions to general prohibition on killing people, the incidental death of one person as a result of his or her removal from another autonomous person’s body should be included and the autonomous person is the sole arbiter of that particular dilemma. In the instance with the twins, the decision whether to separate and save one child was rightly left to the parents and abided by the medical staff involved with the case, some of whom opted not to participate out of their own sense of ethics. However, their recusal did not prevent the surgery nor did the American government insert itself into the case by charging anyone with murder of the ill child who died during the surgery. The personhood of that child was not ever in dispute and yet it’s ‘right to life’ was not defended. This would be analogous to the health exception most prolifers want. (See also [principle of double effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_double_effect)) I think your organ donation analogy is interesting. Let me propose a hypothetical. Suppose that one of your adult children were diagnosed with some sort of condition that required an organ transplant. Suppose that donating this organ involved physical sacrifices comparable to pregnancy but would save the life of your son/daughter. You would say that you shouldn’t be legally compelled to donate, but… (1) Would you donate the organ anyway? (2) If you weren’t a match but your husband was, and he refused to donate his whatchamacallit, would you think less of him? (3) If you would donate an organ to save one of your adult children but would not lend a uterus to a baby if you conceived one, why not? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-atheists-an-argument-to-oppose-abortion/800094/202 "2017-11-18T21:37:36Z")
> [@truthseeker3](#): > > This would be analogous to the health exception most prolifers want. (See also [principle of double effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_double_effect)) > > I think your organ donation analogy is interesting. Let me propose a hypothetical. Suppose that one of your adult children were diagnosed with some sort of condition that required an organ transplant. Suppose that donating this organ involved physical sacrifices comparable to pregnancy but would save the life of your son/daughter. You would say that you shouldn’t be legally compelled to donate, but… > (1) Would you donate the organ anyway? > (2) If you weren’t a match but your husband was, and he refused to donate his whatchamacallit, would you think less of him? > (3) If you would donate an organ to save one of your adult children but would not lend a uterus to a baby if you conceived one, why not? > > Thanks. Minor observation - taking a knee during the national anthem will certainly make people think less of you (or at least it’s likely to prompt people to\* say\* they think less of you). Should standing be legally compelled? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-atheists-an-argument-to-oppose-abortion/800094/203 "2017-11-18T23:42:13Z")
> [@truthseeker3](#): > > This would be analogous to the health exception most prolifers want. (See also [principle of double effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_double_effect)) > > I think your organ donation analogy is interesting. Let me propose a hypothetical. Suppose that one of your adult children were diagnosed with some sort of condition that required an organ transplant. Suppose that donating this organ involved physical sacrifices comparable to pregnancy but would save the life of your son/daughter. You would say that you shouldn’t be legally compelled to donate, but… Yes, this is the crux of the matter, but I’ll play. > [@](#): > > (1) Would you donate the organ anyway? Generally, I think I would in a heartbeat, but I can think of circumstances in which I might not. Do I know this child or did I relinquish my parental rights and responsibilities at some point? For whatever reason, I might decide that I have no parental obligations to a person who is nothing more than biological offspring to me. Maybe I’m a Jehovah’s Witness and the surgery requires a blood transfusion, I might say no based on my religious beliefs. Perhaps my child is estranged from the family due to chronic drug abuse that has not abated. Am I, say, Jeffrey Dahmer’s mom? I don’t think I’d give my child an organ if he was a convicted serial killer. Maybe I’m really down on my luck and don’t have the means to pay for medical costs, nor take the time required off of work. > [@](#): > > (2) If you weren’t a match but your husband was, and he refused to donate his whatchamacallit, would you think less of him? I don’t think so. While I may not agree with his choices or understand them – although I’d attempt to try – and maybe I couldn’t accept them, but I’d respect his right to decide for himself. I don’t know if being upset that he made a choice I disagreed with (if I did) would make me think less of him. I’ve also had to make some incredibly difficult decisions in life in which none of the options were obviously the “right one.” > [@](#): > > (3) If you would donate an organ to save one of your adult children but would not lend a uterus to a baby if you conceived one, why not? This one is easy. For one thing, I already have two children. Life as a young parent was not always that easy because of certain decisions I made early in life. At certain times in their lives, had I been pregnant or had another child, it would have negatively impacted their lives and mine. I don’t see any good reason to subject them to any level of suffering or want for a clump of cells to which I have no attachment. For another thing, at this stage in my life a pregnancy would create even greater physical sacrifices and health risk to me and that of any child I conceived than it does at a younger age. It might create a strain on my marriage and financial stability. Again, I see absolutely no reason to subject myself to a level of discomfort and risk I’m not comfortable with for a clump of cells to which I have no attachment. > [@](#): > > Thanks. You’re welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-atheists-an-argument-to-oppose-abortion/800094/204 "2017-11-19T00:43:16Z")
> [@truthseeker3](#): > > . . . If you would donate an organ to save one of your adult children but would not lend a uterus to a baby if you conceived one, why not? . . . Easy answer: I agree that an adult child is a “person” in every respect, but I do not agree that an unborn child is a “person” in any respect. I’d jump into a rushing river to save a total stranger…but not a fetus. ---
**Author:** ![truthseeker3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e68b1a/32.png) [@truthseeker3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthseeker3)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-atheists-an-argument-to-oppose-abortion/800094/205 "2017-11-21T16:53:32Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Yes, this is the crux of the matter, but I’ll play. … We’re probably at the point where we agree to disagree, but I appreciate your thoughtful response. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-atheists-an-argument-to-oppose-abortion/800094.md?page=10)