So is it your position that every single time a fertilized ovum is discarded by a cellular biologist he has committed murder? Is it murder to use and intrauterine device? Is the use of the Pill murder? These things are all the cause of loss of life to an otherwise viable human zygote.
If this is what you believe, please do explain how you propose to stop these murders from happening. If not, then please describe why they are not, if abortion is.
But, as I said, the specific scientific and legal facts are not what drive my own choices in the matter. I deal with the individual case only, when it becomes my responsibility. That includes at least one entire life, and should it be at all possible, two whole lives. That is the major difference of opinion I have with the self named Pro-life movement.
A Venus flytrap can move in response to stimuli and flowers will open, close, and turn toward the light… does that make them alive in an animal sense? Does that mean we should take every precaution not to kill them? Please explain how the Venus flytrap is different from a fetus that responds to stimuli but has no conscious thought patterns.
Also, remember that an embryo does not move its fingers. It doesn’t even exactly have fingers. How do you propose to show that it’s more “alive” than a Venus flytrap or a flower?
How do you feel about the morning-after pill, which works (or can work) by preventing the fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus? A fertilized egg is just a single cell, no more alive than a bacteria.
I believe that none of us ever existed in a form that was not essentially human, and that human life deserves respect and protection. That is what I believe. And while I’m glad to answer your question, I’m not understanding at all why my suggestion that some people (like myself) consider abortion murder seems to you surprising or why it naturally leads to your questions when it hadn’t before. Again, though, I’m glad to answer.
What do I propose to do? I pray and discuss and vote as my conscience dictates. I try to explain my position in the hope that there is someone who might find some truth in it (even as I struggle to find truth myself). But for the most part I feel frustrated and powerless as far as this issue is concerned. Since you asked.
I see you are an early riser also. I was discussing this thread with my s.o. yesterday (who is also a Bob).
We were thinking that usually people are not converted to a differing viewpoint in forums such as these, and that when people do change their stances from one “side” to the other, it has to do with a life experience, some sort of epiphany.
I think that there is common ground that all the views can strive for, which may have something to do with the OP.
I believe that women would be less likely to have an abortion if:
[ul][li]there were less stigma attached to having a child out of wedlock (sex is a natural body function, not a sin)[/li]
[li]birth control became more readily available[/li]
[li]more community and financial support were available to pregnant women[/li]
[li]males took more responsibility in their part of sex and pregnancy[/li][/ul]
and there are probably more that others can come up with.
I will always hold as my personal belief that a woman has the right to decide whether or not to continue a pregnancy, and not to act as an unwilling receptacle. You will probably always hold your beliefs, and I think you have been quite civil in expressing them here. But working toward changing some of the items I listed might actually do more good than trying to change people’s minds, because it might reduce the numbers of abortions.
Voting for candidates/parties that list anti-abortion laws as part of their platform might do less good than voting for parties that try to address some of the bulleted items.
I hate when topics get this long.
pro abortion people are trying to get back at God (or mother nature) for designing reproduction in such a way that the baby (fetus or group of cells) is totally dependent on the mother - they are bitter about this.
How can you possibly presume to know what “pro abortion” people are trying to do? Have you actually read any of the posts that don’t agree with your thinking? It is one of the reasons topics do get this long, because people do not pay attention to each other.
[believe that women would be less likely to have an abortion if:
there were less stigma attached to having a child out of wedlock (sex is a natural body function, not a sin)]
I could argue that this would increase abortions since there would be more sex and single parenting is hard no matter how you look at it - and the cycle repeats itself. I think there is much less stigma attached to single parents -it is almost praised now - is the abortion rate lower?
[birth control became more readily available]
how much more readily available, it’s getting so when I walk into the men’s room I always see condom machines. they give them out at planned parenthood here in NYS - is the abortion rate any lower?
[more community and financial support were available to pregnant women]
There are numerous programs already to almost reward single parents. true most won’t recoup the cost of childraising but WTF if you have a baby in wedlock you don’t get such help, actually you get penilized in taxes for being married (and if AlGore gets in it will probally stay that way if you married folk own your own home) - anyway is the abortion rate any lower?
males took more responsibility in their part of sex and pregnancy ]
yes by not sticking it in without a commited relationship
points 1-3 I belive have increased the rates of abortions either directly or indirectly (single parert’s child has an abortion)
Well actually k2dave, the abortion rate is lower, according to Centers For Disease Control statistics. In fact, the overall pregnancy rate has declined in the US in the past ten years.
I could not access that link either. My guess would be that some of the strategies directed toward lowering pregnancy rates in teenage mothers are working.
What would be ideas you could add to the list I mentioned to help reduce unwanted pregnancies, and what is your opinion about #4 on that list: males taking more responsibility? I noticed you only addressed the first 3.
Spider Woman, I find that I can no longer sleep late, even if I’m so inclined. Also, your s.o. must be a fine and upstanding individual, as all Bobs are.
I think your points are spot on. I do not actually enter these debates solely as attempts to “convert” (since I may have given that impression). I also like to test the syllogisms I’ve created in my head, faulty though they may sometimes be. Differing perspectives (such as yours) help me to modify and/or strengthen my thought processes–and God knows they could often use some edification. I’m grateful that you’ve found my contributions here civil, because that’s something I always strive for, even if I’m not always completely successful. Anything less is invariably not constructive.
And you are absolutely right in stating that there are certain actions that would be most consistent with a belief that abortion is wrong, and too often we let our contribution to the “cause” end with rhetoric. I’d still offer, though, that even when those who engage others in the debate are inconsistent in this way, that doesn’t automatically render every aspect of their arguments illogical (and I know that’s not what you’re suggesting either).
ruadh ok that link worked
I had to do a little work w/ the numbers and the pregnancy rate has gone down but the percent of abortions have stayed the same:
[This means that 62 percent of pregnancies ended in a live birth, 22 percent in abortion and 16 percent in a iscarriage
or stillbirth. ] for 1996
[Overall, U.S. women are currently averaging 2.0 live births, 0.7 induced abortions, and 0.5 miscarriages and stillbirths, or a total of 3.2 pregnancies each,] - current (2000?)
22% aborted in 1996
0.7/3.2 = 0.21875 = 21.9% = 22% due to rounding aborted currently
I´m glad you asked that, because yes I´m a Pro-life also with vegetal life, you are asking about a fly-trap, you will be amazed of what a Lab in Az. found about plants, If you are interested you should research, plants do feel, it has been proved by electromagnets that plants even care for their owners, the get scared when the people that waters them go to work, they even shiver, these are not myths. Should we keep them and not eat them?, they know they are here for that purpose, this experiment also shows that they vanish, yes lettuces vanish when they know they are about to become a salad. You might think I´m a looney, I´m not. I´m not an expert on the field and unfortunatelly I don´t have the address of the Lab. handy but I will post it soon. The whole planet is alive, and it has it´s own purpose util we finish with it, on Isaiah
In answear to your second question, the unicellular cratures are protozoos, humans are not. You should read what BEAGLEDAVLE posted on this issue is in this same thread and it was posted to me, look for it under “WHEN A HUMAN BEING BEGINS” you will be surprised is a Medical report, is written by an expert on embriology. I didn´t know what it´s on this report very illustrative. Why taking the pill after when you can do it before?
Gloria
[, plants do feel, i]
I though the master addressed this and came to the conclusion that plants don’t feel. Now that not saying that Unc. Ces. is always right as he and I have had disagreements on such topics in the past.
Sorry, didn´t know I´v been on the GD for two days only so I will have to learn all that the webmaster says, but in any case when I say that plants feel it´s because I had a seminar on it that is why I´m sure I can post the address of the Lab. I saw prove of it. Of course it doesn´t necessarily means that when I hurt your feelings your body aches. I like smilies
I’d like to see a cite from a reputable science journal. When I see the word “electromagnets” I’m reminded of “magnet therapy” and my BS detector goes off.
That’s what I’m asking. Assuming hypothetically that plants do have emotions, is that a valid reason to preserve the sanctity of plant life? Is harvesting murder?
Vanish as in disappear? One day you go out to the garden and uh oh, your lettuce has run away? I think I would have heard about this with all the farmers I live around.
Maybe not, but whoever wrote that article definitely is. Did you perhaps read it in the April 1 issue of a magazine?
I searched for that thread and was unable to find it… can you provide a link?
In any case, why does it matter what class the creatures belong to? You posted reasons to consider a fetus “alive”. I mentioned that a fertilized egg is no more alive than a bacteria because it exhibits no more behaviors of life than a bacteria. I don’t see why the fact that scientists have named one “E. coli” and the other “H. sapiens” makes a difference when deciding how alive it is.
Perhaps the condom broke, or you lost your pills and couldn’t take them for a few days, etc.
I like smilies