# "Pro-Life means Anti-Drone" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 26, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972 "2012-10-26T20:57:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/41 "2012-10-29T12:06:58Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > …No, you should vote for Gary Johnson or Jill Stein, or for no-one at all. Hell, even a Romney presidency might be less destructive of human rights, if it means the Democrats start doing the right thing just to be contrary. Sorry, no. My political ideals are farther to the left than most of the policies Obama has been able to enact. What might he do without 100% opposition from the Republicans? But I won’t vote for the worse man, even though you ensure me my vote won’t count here in Texas. How much did those Nader voters help Democrats “start doing the right thing”? How many more people died because Bush II weaseled his way into office? ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/42 "2012-10-29T13:01:38Z")
US Drone Strike statistic based on research by a team of journalists of the [Bureau of Investigative Journalism](http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/01/11/obama-2012-strikes/): > [@](#): > > CIA Drone Strikes in Pakistan 2004–2012 > Total US strikes: 350 > Obama strikes: 298 > Total reported killed: 2,595-3,378 > Civilians reported killed: 474-885 > Children reported killed: 176 > Total reported injured: 1,248-1,397 In my opinion, given the workability of other options, ratio of terrorist kills and civilians casualties is very acceptable for drone strikes. And as I wrote in other the thread, the world should actually be thanking the US for this world service. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/43 "2012-10-29T13:19:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The evidence I’m aware of is that it’s making anti-American groups (and not just “terrorists”) stronger. It’s making groups and issues that _never were_ about anti-Americanism _into_ anti-American movements. It doesn’t terrorize the terrorists; it demonstrates to the world that we are indiscriminate murderers just like them, but with better weapons. Care to make some of this evidence known to the rest of us? Instead of, yknow, just asserting it? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/44 "2012-10-29T13:22:40Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > US Drone Strike statistic based on research by a team of journalists of the [Bureau of Investigative Journalism](http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/01/11/obama-2012-strikes/): > > In my opinion, given the workability of other options, ratio of **terrorist kills** and civilians casualties is very acceptable for drone strikes. And as I wrote in other the thread, the world should actually be thanking the US for this world service. I don’t see a statistic for “terrorists killed”. You honestly think one in every two drone strikes killing a child is “very acceptable”? ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/45 "2012-10-29T14:02:25Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I don’t see a statistic for “terrorists killed”. what are you supposed to think of the people killed who are not categorized as civilians. > [@](#): > > You honestly think one in every two drone strikes killing a child is “very acceptable”? Given the workability of other options, a definite yes. Just imagine how much damage the approx 3000 taliban killed by drones would have caused if they were alive. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/46 "2012-10-29T14:39:26Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > what are you supposed to think of the people killed who are not categorized as civilians. You’re “supposed” to think they’re terrorists - that’s the whole point of defining any adult male as a “militant” unless you have specific evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/47 "2012-10-29T15:09:16Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > You’re “supposed” to think they’re terrorists - that’s the whole point of defining any adult male as a “militant” unless you have specific evidence to the contrary. Don’t really need a 100% fool proof evidence. Even if you say ‘x’ percentage chance of the person being a militant, one should go for the kill in a war. ‘x’ should be sufficiently high which in my opinion it is, in case of a drone strike. Drones would be observing something suspicious on the ground or would be given the coordinates of taliban hideouts by spies on ground, dont you think? Or they would be bombing without a clue. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/48 "2012-10-29T15:12:55Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > Given the workability of other options, a definite yes. Just imagine how much damage the approx 3000 taliban killed by drones would have caused if they were alive. Hopefully more damage than we’ve _actually_ caused by blowing up households and killing thousands of people. Because, if not, then we look pretty silly. Of course, we have no idea how dangerous or culpable the non-civilians are that we’re killing. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/49 "2012-10-29T15:46:43Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > \*\*Hopefully \*\*more damage than we’ve _actually_ caused by blowing up households and killing thousands of people. Because, if not, then we look pretty silly. Instead of _hopefully_, I would think _almost certainly_ because we know what Taliban stand for, and read about their acts (beheadings, suicide attacks etc) on daily\weekly basis. > [@](#): > > Of course, we have no idea how dangerous or culpable the non-civilians are that we’re killing. Need not have the absolute idea. A rough idea is good enough in a war. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/50 "2012-10-29T16:22:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Hey, it’s not Obama’s fault that the previous administration got us into a couple of stupid wars. He’s just the one who got stuck with trying to end them. Which he has even done, in one of the cases. > > If you don’t like the US fighting wars, don’t start them. And that goes double for vague, ill-defined wars. Wow, haha ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/51 "2012-10-29T23:51:51Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > what are you supposed to think of the people killed who are not categorized as civilians. That they are currently uncategorised. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/52 "2012-10-30T11:33:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Things have gone to hell ever since we invented guns and bullets. And I’m not completely sold on bows and arrows either. I say bring back the days of swords and clubs so we can kill people the moral way - up close and personal. …or invent the personal shield _a la_ Dune ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/53 "2012-10-30T12:06:09Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > Instead of _hopefully_, I would think _almost certainly_ because we know what Taliban stand for, and read about their acts (beheadings, suicide attacks etc) on daily\weekly basis. That argument assumes that the drone attacks are making them weaker and not stronger. _And_ that it’s the Taliban we are killing. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/54 "2012-10-30T12:26:45Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > I see the reasoning behind drone attacks. I just find it do weird that the idea is basically not even “debatable” between Obama and Romney when they’re supposedly so different. They are very far apart on a lot of issues. This isn’t one of them. The drone program was certainly controversial and it’s expanded a lot under Obama. I think there are a couple of different reasons: the public is used to the idea at this point; after almost 20 combined years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan people don’t want larger military commitments; there’s some evidence it’s been very effective (when the Taliban try to take whole regions hostage by saying they’ll block flu vaccination if the drones are not called off, that’s a good hint); and given the low cost of the drones to the U.S. it is probably politically difficult to oppose them. > [@Lust4Life](#): > > There seems to be a concerted campaign on at the moment to try and demonise drones. Where? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That argument assumes that the drone attacks are making them weaker and not stronger. Do you have a cite that it’s making them stronger? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/55 "2012-10-30T12:47:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Do you have a cite that it’s making them stronger? No; but I didn’t _say_ it was, although I wouldn’t be surprised. I was questioning the assumption that it was making them weaker. With those kill numbers (assuming them to be true for the sake of argument) I don’t see the drones as being likely to do anything but create martyrs and anger the local populace into supporting them, while not doing anything but easily repairable damage to the organization. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/56 "2012-10-30T13:36:12Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > There seems to be a concerted campaign on at the moment to try and demonise drones. I’ll clarify this: it’s not the UCAVs that are the problem. An Apache dropping an airstrike on first responders is just as much a war crime as a drone dropping an airstrike on first responders. The UCAVs just make it easier. Or to put it another way: drones don’t kill people, CIA assassins kill people. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/57 "2012-10-30T14:31:45Z")
Seems a little hair splitting to me. Like the outrage over Asian’s eating dogs. Like the dog cares whether it’s killed to eat or killed at the pound? Kill people without putting US troops at risk, sounds like a war advancement to me. But in the end we’re still killing people so it’s somewhat hair splitting to me. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/58 "2012-10-30T15:06:32Z")
Indeed, there is no doubt that the people cheerleading for drones would not object to U.S. soldiers marching through Pakistani villages and killing the same number of civilians through gunshots to the face. This is a failing of humanity on the part of the Obama supporters and other drone fans, not a failure of the anti-drone argument, which focuses on the reality as it exists now (i.e., that the arbitrary murders are, in fact, being committed with drones). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/59 "2012-10-30T15:19:21Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Indeed, there is no doubt that the people cheerleading for drones would not object to U.S. soldiers marching through Pakistani villages and killing the same number of civilians through gunshots to the face. This is a failing of humanity on the part of the Obama supporters and other drone fans I gave you a mod note about this kind of rhetoric in the other thread. Personal remarks don’t belong in this forum and this kind of over-the-top language is (at best) close to trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972/60 "2012-10-30T15:52:07Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Wrong. If you’re going to be a slave to this game theory bullshit, you should also remember that a single vote for Obama in a particular state is incredibly unlikely to be the thing that stops Romney becoming President. You can’t have it both ways. > No, you should vote for Gary Johnson or Jill Stein, or for no-one at all. Hell, even a Romney presidency might be less destructive of human rights, if it means the Democrats start doing the right thing just to be contrary. This election is screwed, there are no real choices on issues like human rights and drone strikes. So what you do is, you vote for Obama, cause he’s not as bad as Romney (whose advisors have ALREADY come out in favor of re-instituting torture) then you start working on developing a viable progressive party to oppose the Dems because they are just Republican-lite now. If we want a choice we will have to make one, the Dems no longer represent a choice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-means-anti-drone/638972.md?page=4)