# Pro-life...with two exceptions
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 25, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904 "2003-07-25T16:13:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/21 "2003-07-26T02:11:19Z")
**Bob Cos**
If the fetus has a fatal genetic flaw that will cause death within days of birth (let us say [Potter’s Syndrome](http://www.geocities.com/MomsDustyAttic/PottersSyndrome.html) for argument because I was involved in just such a case) and the birthing process is riskier than the therapeutic abortion for the mother (it generally is) would you still deny a therapeutic abortion to the mother?
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/22 "2003-07-26T02:28:25Z")
**Bob Cos** , and if the life and/or health and well being of the mother is in danger?
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### Author:  [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/23 "2003-07-26T03:55:31Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by jmonster \*
> **If you are pro-choice/anti-life**
Question here from someone who doesn’t venture into Great Debates much (I hate conflict)-
Are pro-choice and anti-life usually interchangeable terms? I don’t think I’m comfortable with the term ‘Anti-Life’.
FB
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### Author:  [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/24 "2003-07-26T04:03:22Z")
Being pro choice and reluctant to enter the fray untill this excellent thread;
If one belives that abortion is murder, than any reason to allow abortion is still murder. There is some chance in any situation, whether danger to the mother or a diseased child that the baby would survive. Murder under these circumstances would still be murder.
Murder of a rape or incest child is murder of an unwanted or embarassing child, and indefensible for any other circustances of not wanting a child.
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### Author:  [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/25 "2003-07-26T04:03:22Z")
No, just **jmonster** trying to be provocative / annoying.
I hate when people refer to pro-life folks as ‘anti-choice’
And this is at least as bad.
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### Author:  [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/26 "2003-07-26T07:12:46Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by autz \*
> \*\*I recently had a friend who was happily pregnant with her 4th baby find out that the baby had a severe case of Trisonomy 18. This is a genetic disease in which the baby has an over 50% chance of dying before birth and a 0% chance of making it to one year.
>
> In my state the exceptions for a late term abortion are for rape, incest, and the life of the mother. There is no exception for the life or health of the baby.
>
> This baby had a 0% chance of surviving past infancy. I’m pro-life, but in this case supported her difficult decision to fly to California and have an abortion.
>
> What do you think? \*\*
I think your friend made the right decision. And I think she should not have had to go out of state. What happens to women in this situation who cannot afford the extra expense of travelling to anoher state, possibly staying at a hotel or motel, etc.?
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/27 "2003-07-26T08:09:03Z")
There is more than one way for the pregnancy to endanger the life of the mother. If she is emotionally fragile, being forced to carry a child conceived through rape or incest could be destructive of her life too.
And as for things being either black or white, I am pro-choice and anti-abortion. (I know. It confuses me too.)
I hope that someday more pro-choice people take active roles in supporting child care assistance, work place day-care, etc.
Is “pro-life” really descriptive of the beliefs of most people who are opposed to choice? Are they consistently pro-life – against the death penalty and opposed to non-diplomatic solutions for international conflicts?
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/28 "2003-07-26T11:02:56Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \*
> \*\ ***Bob Cos**
> If the fetus has a fatal genetic flaw that will cause death within days of birth (let us say [Potter’s Syndrome](http://www.geocities.com/MomsDustyAttic/PottersSyndrome.html) for argument because I was involved in just such a case) and the birthing process is riskier than the therapeutic abortion for the mother (it generally is) would you still deny a therapeutic abortion to the mother? \*\*
“Riskier” is a loaded term, I guess. I believe that the mother’s life is certainly no less valuable. In situations where the mother’s life is in imminent danger–i.e., there is a very strong possibility she will die–abortion could be an ethical choice if it remedies that circumstance. These are rare situations, I would think, and they certainly must be difficult decisions. I’m not sure that’s the situation you’re describing–I’m probably misunderstanding (as I’m sure is obvious, I’m not a doctor).
Guinastasia, hopefully this answers your question as well.
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/29 "2003-07-26T11:05:24Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by autz \*
> \*\*If my friend had a 2 year old with a disease that was 100% fatal in a short time, and this disease caused a terrible quality of life for the time the child had left, then Yes, I would think euthanasia would be a merciful option. \*\*
I’m sure there are many who agree with you. I just don’t believe we get to decide what is a good enough quality of life, not if the decision to actively cause another’s death hinges on that.
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/30 "2003-07-26T11:15:18Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Zoe \*
> \*\*Is “pro-life” really descriptive of the beliefs of most people who are opposed to choice? Are they consistently pro-life – against the death penalty and opposed to non-diplomatic solutions for international conflicts? \*\*
I am pro-life, against capital punishment, and I certainly do not oppose diplomatic solutions for international conflicts. I also don’t believe there is a single, unified pro-life philosophy.
Is “pro-choice” really descriptive of the beliefs of most people who are opposed to protecting the lives of the unborn? Are they consistently pro-choice – for the right to choose to discriminate against others based on race in hiring decisions, for the right to choose to use school vouchers, for the right to choose to own an unrestricted collection of firearms? What do you think? 😉
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### Author:  [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/31 "2003-07-26T14:41:34Z")
Most “pro-life” people I talk to don’t have a problem with discarding frozen embryos. When I ask that question on abortion threads, it usually goes unanswered. The biggest “pro-life” person I know saw nothing wrong with it. When I asked him why not, he replied 'Well, it’s not really a life till it’s in the mother."
If life begins at conception, then discarding frozen embryos is muder, right?
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/32 "2003-07-26T15:02:30Z")
autz- I’m on your side.
In a perfect world, I would choose 100% pro-lifism over 100% pro-choicism, but these are the mitigating factors-
in the words of Bob Dornan, asking a woman to bear her rapist’s child is to ask for an act of heroism & you can’t force heroism (the same for incest & severe deformity such as microcephalism where there is little to no brain);
a “no exceptions anti-abortion” policy has no chance in Hell of being passed;
the US inalienable rights tradition upholds “life. liberty & pursuit of happiness” (with perhaps “property”). When one’s rights conflict with another’s usually “life” outranks “liberty”, “PofH” & “property”… MOST of the time. Rape & incest pregnancies however are extreme infringements upon liberty, PoH & property-
IF indeed such pregnancies are initiated by God, He can grace the woman with the ability & will to carry on the pregnancy. If the woman is not so enabled, I’m not going to use the law to enforce it upon her.
Yes, I do believe the choice to abort without any of these difficult factors is, at best, morally questionable & an usually unjustifiable assault on the unborn child’s right to life.
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/33 "2003-07-26T15:24:33Z")
Now that the thread has gotten this far, it appears that I named it wrong. Apparently there are three exceptions…rape, incest, and if the child will be born with some sort of deformity.
As far as the third option goes, do we have any kind of limit on this? I used to know a guy who thought it was okay to abort a child if it was going to be born with Down Syndrome. I’m sure most people on this board wouldn’t agree with that, but where do you draw the line? What kind of deformity is sufficent enough to warrant an abortion?
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### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/34 "2003-07-26T15:27:46Z")
And all pro-choice people must think it’s moral for a woman to destroy an unborn child up to the day before it’s born.
Hey, this gross-oversimplification and misstatement thing is fun.
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### Author:  [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/35 "2003-07-26T16:04:00Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Annie-Xmas \*
> \*\*Most “pro-life” people I talk to don’t have a problem with discarding frozen embryos. When I ask that question on abortion threads, it usually goes unanswered. The biggest “pro-life” person I know saw nothing wrong with it. When I asked him why not, he replied 'Well, it’s not really a life till it’s in the mother."
>
> If life begins at conception, then discarding frozen embryos is muder, right? \*\*
Yes.
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/36 "2003-07-26T16:47:40Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Hamlet \*
> \*\*And all pro-choice people must think it’s moral for a woman to destroy an unborn child up to the day before it’s born.
>
> Hey, this gross-oversimplification and misstatement thing is fun. \*\*
Mind saying who you were directing that at?
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### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/37 "2003-07-26T17:09:34Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lord Ashtar \*
> \*\*Mind saying who you were directing that at? \*\*
Sure. People who say things like:
> [@](#):
>
> If one belives that abortion is murder, than any reason to allow abortion is still murder. There is some chance in any situation, whether danger to the mother or a diseased child that the baby would survive. Murder under these circumstances would still be murder. Murder of a rape or incest child is murder of an unwanted or embarassing child, and indefensible for any other circustances of not wanting a child.
and
> [@](#):
>
> If you are pro-life except for rape and incest, you clearly understand that there are cases where a woman would have a legitimate desire to terminate a pregnancy. In this case, the fetus’s life becomes less sacred because thevwoman did not consent to the sex that created it. So, essentially, you are punishing women who choose to have sex, or saying that they have to carry the fetus to term because they are loose or wicked or painted Jezebels or some other atavistic, double-standardized, “moral” term.
and
> [@](#):
>
> If life begins at conception, then discarding frozen embryos is muder, right?
Abortion is a complex issue and attempts ON BOTH SIDES to oversimplify the other’s viewpoints harms, more than helps, the discussion. My example regarding the third trimester abortion was just pointing that out.
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### Author:  [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/38 "2003-07-26T18:04:57Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Hamlet \*
> \*\*Abortion is a complex issue and attempts ON BOTH SIDES to oversimplify the other’s viewpoints harms, more than helps, the discussion. My example regarding the third trimester abortion was just pointing that out. \*\*
I hope this isn’t taken the wrong way, but my dad has a small comic strip hanging over his desk.
A preacher standing behind a podium is making quotation marks with his fingers saying, “There is no Christian position. There are _Christian positions_.”
A child is then shown sitting on the lap of Jesus asking, “Lord, what are your positions on murder, abortion, genocide…”
Basically, this brings things back to my OP. IF abortion is murder and IF God is against it (which is the position of most pro-lifers), then why is it not a black and white issue? Why are we allowed to make exceptions? I’m not trying to make light of some of the horrible positions some people have been in, but I want to understand where the grey area comes in.
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### Author:  [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/39 "2003-07-26T19:00:02Z")
I don’t think any issue is simply black and white, because situations are not black and white. Every scenario is different.
I’m pro-life and I do **not** uphold the rape/incest loophole. I do not believe that justice or goodness are served by compounding the wrong done to the mother by wronging the unborn child in a permanent, unhealable, unrecoverable fashion.
And as compassionate as my feelings may be towards those with issues like **autz’s** friend, I don’t think I can go there either. It’s too slippery a slope; while some parents would only abort for those diseases which would prove ultimately fatal, there would be those who would abort a child with cerebral palsy or spina bifida or Down’s, conditions with which people can live very happy and productive lives. It’s very difficult, my heart breaks for people in that situation. I’m pregnant now and I know how devastating it would be to learn that there was something wrong with this child. But personally, I still can’t go so far as to say I’d be okay with a “defect” loophole either.
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### Author:  [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-life-with-two-exceptions/190904/40 "2003-07-26T19:24:37Z")
I’m prolife, and I also don’t agree with the rape/incest loophole. In addition to the beliefs that **tlw** articulated, leaving it in there seems to suggest that the only reason that that loophole exists is because those women aren’t responsible for their pregnancies. The implication is that we (pro-lifers) are pro-life only in order to punish “guilty” women, and that’s not something I want to be linked to.
I have mixed feelings about situations like that of **autz** ’s friend, but they’re a direct result of my mixed feelings about euthanasia in general.
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