# Pro-Lifers: Are they hypocrites? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400 "2005-10-15T21:04:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/61 "2005-10-17T16:22:43Z")
> [@jali](#): > > Wave the flag and bomb “foreign” babies (acceptable collateral damage) unless they were fetus - then it would be wrong - (am I getting the point here?)… > > My question to anti - abortionists: How many children have you adopted? That’s my idea of putting your money where your mouth is. Your first comment is something I can agree with in sentiment if not in phrasing. Yes, among those who espouse a pro-“life” agenda are those who seem to feel that “life” only matters if it’s a fetus, and American at that. But there are many factions within the anti-abortion umbrella, and not all of them agree on things like the war in Iraq or the death penalty or any “culture of life” issues. Your second question is silly. How many women have you escorted to abortion clinics? How many abortions have you paid for? Better, how many women have you escorted to health clinics for birth control? ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/62 "2005-10-17T16:32:02Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > The statement to which I responded said absolutely nothing about the “lunatic fringe.” Allow me to quote your own words in their entirety. > > > [@jsgoddess](#): > > > > Abortion protest can be a nice crowbar into a general undeclared war on humanistic values **for the fucking nutty who are so inclined.** They don’t just daydream about killing abortion doctors to stop abortions. Those doctors are stand-ins for women, minorities, lefties, anyone who stands up for particular rights or issues over the absolutism that they believe is the only morality. > > See? Nothing about the “lunatic fringe” there. All you have is some unspecified “they.” In the absence of any qualifiers, it’s only natural to presume that you’re referring to pro-lifers in general. In fact, since you talked about them _daydreaming_ about violence – as opposed to actually practicing it – the evidence suggests that your ire was not limited to the lunatic fringe. Actually, I think that “the fucking nutty” pretty much limits the discussion to the lunatic fringe, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/63 "2005-10-17T16:39:18Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > Actually, I think that “the fucking nutty” pretty much limits the discussion to the lunatic fringe, don’t you? It does. However, I didn’t make the comments you’re attributing to me. I believe it was **Beware of Doug**. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/64 "2005-10-17T16:46:29Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > Actually, I think that “the fucking nutty” pretty much limits the discussion to the lunatic fringe, don’t you? No, because there’s a big difference between lunacy and mere nuttiness. Moreover, as I already pointed out, **Beware of Doug** was referring to people who allegedly _daydream_ about torturing abortionists, as opposed to the lunatics who commit outright acts of violence. Additionally, setting such distinctions aside, I must reiterate my previous questions to him. How do you know that these people – whoever you may be referring to – do indeed daydream of committing violent acts against practitioners of abortion? And how do you know that they would extend those same fantasies to women, minorities and leftists? Is there any evidence for your claims, and if so, what manner of technology did you use to read these people’s minds? Or are you merely pulling accusations out of thin air? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/65 "2005-10-17T16:46:46Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It does. However, I didn’t make the comments you’re attributing to me. I believe it was **Beware of Doug**. Guilty as charged. I apologize for the subtlety, which is a sneaky tool of liberal sophistry used to bamboozle the Great American Public. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/66 "2005-10-17T16:48:29Z")
> [@jali](#): > > My question to anti - abortionists: How many children have you adopted? That’s my idea of putting your money where your mouth is. A few questions for you: 1. Do you oppose child abuse? If so, how many victims of child abuse have you personally adopted? If not, does your own logic not make you a hypocrite? 2. Are you seriously suggesting that pro-lifers have no business opposing abortion unless they are willing to personally adopt the babies in question? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/67 "2005-10-17T17:11:44Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > Guilty as charged. I apologize for the subtlety, which is a sneaky tool of liberal sophistry used to bamboozle the Great American Public. Well, I think we all know who can’t keep a secret! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/68 "2005-10-17T17:45:51Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The best way to prevent abortion is to make them unnecessary. Would you agree with that? Absolutely. > [@](#): > > Increasing sex education and availability of birth control As to sex education, absolutely yes. As to birth control, I’m a bit more hesitant. Ultimately I agree that sex with birth control is better than sex without for unmarried folks. I hestitate only because I fear that widespread birth control may have the effect of encouraging sex where it otherwise might not happen. But frankly, I feel that tiger is already out of the cage. While my response to this is a bit more nuanced, in the end, yes, I favor availibility of birth control. > [@](#): > > Research into more effective forms of birth control Absolutely. > [@](#): > > No or low-cost health care for expectant mothers and their babies Yes. > [@](#): > > Expanded WIC programs Maybe. I’d want to discuss guidelines of the expansion. > [@](#): > > Paid FMLA Nope. Here I believe you’d be shifting the burden of payments to employers. > [@](#): > > Programs to increase the affordability of child care Qualified yes - I’d want to get details on the programs. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/69 "2005-10-17T17:51:12Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > \*\*1. Hypocricy \*\* > > Bricker has certainly confirmed the OP. Hypocracy abound here, thinly disguised in lofty goals. > > Overturning Roe vs Wade means you want to take away choice. Fine that you want to help create a world where having the child is a more palatable, happier, more life-affirming choice in one paragraph, and removing any choice altogether in the other, or knowingly open the door to more abortion ‘incidents’. You couldn’t have spelt out hypocrite more clearly. > > In the meantime, life-affirming sounds nice, but 9 months of pregnancy should only be forced upon you if you really, really want that. The potential medical consequences of pregnancy are such that you would professionally find plenty of reason to sue any kind of commercial company for such potential side-effects for a very hefty sum, yet you would willingly take away a legal option to prevent women from having that happen to themselves. A hypocrite espouses one view but believes and practices another. What _specific_ view of mine fits that category? Did you even begin to understand my objection to _Roe v. Wade_? It says there is a federal constitututional right to an abortion. I believe that should not be so: that is, a fair and reasonable reading of the Constitution should not reach that result. In what way is that remotely hypocritical? Please be specific. Don’t assert a general hypocrisy and fail to define it. What, SPECIFICALLY, am I hypocritical in saying, doing, or believing? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/70 "2005-10-17T17:55:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nope. Here I believe you’d be shifting the burden of payments to employers. I agree with you. We agree on most of this, with the exception of my wholehearted embrace of contraception and, of course, the abortion issue. Still, we have much more in common regarding these issues than I would have suspected. Thanks for the illumination. ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/71 "2005-10-17T17:56:57Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > A few questions for you: > > 1. Do you oppose child abuse? If so, how many victims of child abuse have you personally adopted? If not, does your own logic not make you a hypocrite? > > 2. Are you seriously suggesting that pro-lifers have no business opposing abortion unless they are willing to personally adopt the babies in question? Apples and oranges. Two very different issues. To answer your question though, yes, I have taken in an abused child. I didn’t formally adopt him. I just raised him with my own children. I didn’t rally against child abuse and force my political leader to do the same if he wanted my support. My point is, what happens to all those children born as a result of the anti abortion campaign? If a mother doesn’t want a child, what happens? The child abuse you mentioned. So it’s time for money where your mouth is! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/72 "2005-10-17T18:12:20Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I agree with you. > > We agree on most of this, with the exception of my wholehearted embrace of contraception and, of course, the abortion issue. > > Still, we have much more in common regarding these issues than I would have suspected. Thanks for the illumination. On this board, the issues where I lean conservative tend to get far more play than the issues on which I lean liberal. But I’ve said before that it’s tough finding a politicial figure - much less a party - to which I can give unqualified support. Sure, I favor eliminating abortion, which puts me square with the majority of Republicans… where I find no one who’s willing to condemn the death penalty, which I also abhor. So too with issues of social policy and justice. While in many areas I tend to be more free-market and winner-take-all, the issues of care of true innocents: unborn and newborns – cries out for help from society. And the best way society can steer ANY trend is by giving not just immediate aid, but tools - education - to prevent recurrence of the problems at issue. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/73 "2005-10-17T18:47:20Z")
> [@jali](#): > > Apples and oranges. Two very different issues. No, they’re not. You asked if pro-lifers are willing to personally adopt all the babies that would otherwise be aborted. By that same token, it’s only fair to ask if pro-choicers who oppose child abuse would be willing to personally adopt these children that might otherwise be abused. There is no relevant distinction. > [@](#): > > To answer your question though, yes, I have taken in an abused child. I didn’t formally adopt him. I just raised him with my own children. I didn’t rally against child abuse and force my political leader to do the same if he wanted my support. Good for you. Now, let’s raise the stakes. What about infanticide? Do you oppose it? If so, how many newborns have you adopted – innocent babies that would otherwise have been put to death? What about pet abuse? Do you oppose the drowning of helpless kittens? If so, how many of these kittens have you personally taken into your home? > [@](#): > > My point is, what happens to all those children born as a result of the anti abortion campaign? If a mother doesn’t want a child, what happens? The child abuse you mentioned. So it’s time for money where your mouth is! Your statement amounts to saying, “Unless you are willing to personally care for these fetuses once they are born, we should feel free to go ahead and end their existence!” In effect, you are foisting all responsibility onto those who object to this heinous act. It is blame-shifting of the lowest caliber. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/74 "2005-10-17T18:52:55Z")
> [@jali](#): > > To answer your question though, yes, I have taken in an abused child. I didn’t formally adopt him. I just raised him with my own children. I didn’t rally against child abuse and force my political leader to do the same if he wanted my support. That’s certainly praiseworth, but I don’t follow - are you suggesting that it is wrong to rally against child abuse, or to make it a core issue for your vote? > [@jali](#): > > My point is, what happens to all those children born as a result of the anti abortion campaign? If a mother doesn’t want a child, what happens? The child abuse you mentioned. But by that logic, abused children should be executed to prevent future abuse. And I can’t believe you would advocate that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/75 "2005-10-17T19:11:04Z")
I disagree with your basic logic. If someone wishes to **force** me to have a child, shouldn’t they have some responsibility for the quality of life of the child. Or is the concern only through the birth of the child? Does the actual child matter? If the child matters then some entity MUST take care of the child. The mother obviously can’t/won’t. I’m saying that anti-abortionists should be willing to accept responsibility for the _result_ of their stance. I’ve heard some say that in cases of rape they would allow abortion. Are these somehow subhuman fetuses that are approved by the anti abortion lobby for discard? (I know this is not what I originally posted, but it just came to me) ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/76 "2005-10-17T19:13:54Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > A few questions for you: > > 1. Do you oppose child abuse? If so, how many victims of child abuse have you personally adopted? If not, does your own logic not make you a hypocrite? > > 2. Are you seriously suggesting that pro-lifers have no business opposing abortion unless they are willing to personally adopt the babies in question? I’m astonished that it took TWO pages for this canard to pop up…don’t we usually get the “If you were **really** pro life, you would would personally adopt all of these babies” on the first page of these threads, **JThunder**? It just doesn’t seem like a real abortion thread if it doesn’t pop up in the first few posts. I’m anxious to see the addition to his/her house that **jali** built to house all of the women who’ve been victims of domestic abuse as well… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/77 "2005-10-17T19:17:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s certainly praiseworth, but I don’t follow - are you suggesting that it is wrong to rally against child abuse, or to make it a core issue for your vote? > But by that logic, abused children should be executed to prevent future abuse. And I can’t believe you would advocate that. > > Regards, > Shodan I don’t believe in the execution of abused children - no! The number of children in foster care now awaiting adoption is staggering. How many legal abortions ar completed in one year? Add those children to an already overburdened social service roll and what will be the result? If I don’t want to have a child - I don’t understand how by forcing me to have the child in the end it would be a positive thing. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/78 "2005-10-17T19:27:27Z")
Most pro-life activists are hypocrites because they won’t take their views to their logically consistent conclusion. If abortion is murder there should be no exceptions; not for rape, or incest, or the health of the mother. Murder is murder. We would have to arrest women who had abortions, because they would be just as guilty as mothers who murder their born children. If they had children they would be taken away, because that’s what happens now to mothers who murder their children. Even attempting to obtain an abortion would have to lead to the same consequences. We would most certainly end up with the situation where a woman is raped and has an abortion but ultimately the rapist goes free and the victim goes to prison. Does anyone really want to live in such a world? I’d be surprised if any but the most diehard pro-life activists would. ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/79 "2005-10-17T19:28:29Z")
I must add: Child abuse, infanticide are horrible crimes. I think the difference is _interference with the right to choose_. The person contemplating abortion obviously does not want a baby. WHAT ABOUT THE BABY? In my opinion child abuse and infanticide are a direct result of a “parent” not wanting the child. If you force an unwilling person to have a baby, do you not care what happens to the child? I met a young man at a doctors office (I SWEAR THIS IS TRUE) in Forest Hills, Queens. He was an ex anti-choice person. His stance changed when _his_ girlfriend got pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400/80 "2005-10-17T19:39:00Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > Most pro-life activists are hypocrites because they won’t take their views to their logically consistent conclusion. If abortion is murder there should be no exceptions; not for rape, or incest, or the health of the mother. Murder is murder. We would have to arrest women who had abortions, because they would be just as guilty as mothers who murder their born children. If they had children they would be taken away, because that’s what happens now to mothers who murder their children. Even attempting to obtain an abortion would have to lead to the same consequences. We would most certainly end up with the situation where a woman is raped and has an abortion but ultimately the rapist goes free and the victim goes to prison. > > Does anyone really want to live in such a world? I’d be surprised if any but the most diehard pro-life activists would. Have you read any of the posts I’ve made thus far in this thread? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-are-they-hypocrites/326400.md?page=5)