# Pro-lifers asking: Why isn't the Gosnell trial bigger news in the traditional media? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557 "2013-04-13T01:11:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/61 "2013-04-14T19:46:14Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I agree that wider trial coverage would likely bring out facts that the anti-abortion movement would prefer not to acknowledge - highlighting the extreme contrast between conditions at this clinic and the professional women’s health clinics that they try so hard to shut down. I’m not exactly sure what point you’re trying to make, since pro-lifers would just point out that sub-par conditions in abortion clinics aren’t merely [“isolated incidents”](http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news%2Flocal&id=9059172), and that at the very least abortion clinics should be regulated like outpatient centers (regulations, mind you, pro-choicers almost always oppose). ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/62 "2013-04-14T20:08:23Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I’m not exactly sure what point you’re trying to make, since pro-lifers would just point out that sub-par conditions in abortion clinics aren’t merely [“isolated incidents”](http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news%2Flocal&id=9059172), and that at the very least abortion clinics should be regulated like outpatient centers (regulations, mind you, pro-choicers almost always oppose). I’m not sure what point you are trying to make since it has been pointed out ad nauseum that pro-choicers oppose regulations _that are not tied to any evidence of increased facility or patient care safety_. Regulations that have been swamping state legislation for the past couple of years have been aimed at restricting access and burdening women. These regulations are not founded in medical evidence and are opposed by practically every reputable medical association out there (AMA, ACOG, etc) but ideologically driven lobbyists somehow are granted more legislative influence - despite their lack of medical training? Your link doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/63 "2013-04-14T20:12:53Z")
And whatever happened to Jennifer Morabelli? The 29 yr old kindergarten teacher ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/64 "2013-04-14T20:18:54Z")
She went to have an abortion at a “licensed clinic” and well, next thing you know… ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/65 "2013-04-14T20:23:42Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > The problem in the Gosnell case was not lack of regulations – it was that they were not enforced. > > Pro-choicers are not against regulations designed to ensure facility safety and patient care.. Maybe, but as is often the case they usually refuse to enforce regulations for fear of “impending a woman’s right to choose”. Taken from the [Grand Jury Report](http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/pdfs/grandjurywomensmedical.pdf): > [@](#): > > The first line of defense was the Pennsylvania Department of Health. The department’s job is to audit hos pitals and outpatient medical facilities, like Gosnell’s, to make sure that they follow the rules and provide safe care. The department had contact with the Women’s Medical Society dating back to 1979, when it first issued approval to open an abortion clinic. It did not conduct another site review until 1989, ten years later. Numerous violations were already apparent, but Gosnell got a pass when he promised to fix them. Site reviews in 1992 and 1993 also noted various violations, but again failed to ensure they were corrected. But at least the department had been doing something up to that point, however ineffectual. > > **After 1993, even that pro form a effort came to an end. Not because of administrative ennui, although there had been plenty. Instead, the Pennsylvania Department of Health abruptly decided, for political reasons, to stop inspecting abortion clinics at all. The politics in question were not anti-abortion, but pro. With the change of administration from Governor Casey to Governor Ridge, officials concluded that inspections would be “putting a barrier up to women” seeking abortions. Better to leave clinics to do as they pleased, even though, as Gosnell proved, that meant both women and babies would pay**. > [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > I’m not sure what point you are trying to make since it has been pointed out ad nauseum that pro-choicers oppose regulations _that are not tied to any evidence of increased facility or patient care safety_. Regulations that have been swamping state legislation for the past couple of years have been aimed at restricting access and burdening women. These regulations are not founded in medical evidence and are opposed by practically every reputable medical association out there (AMA, ACOG, etc) but ideologically driven lobbyists somehow are granted more legislative influence - despite their lack of medical training? You’re being dishonest if you’re going to sit here and assert that, as a general rule, pro-choicers support any regulations on abortion clinics. Pro-choicers will not, and do not, even support regulating abortions clinics the same as outpatient clinics. Just look at the latest “row”, and I use the term lightly, over the Virginia legislature’s decision to impose new abortion clinic regulations (including state mandated inspections). > [@](#): > > Your link doesn’t work. [Let’s try this again](http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=9059172). Should work this time. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/66 "2013-04-14T21:18:41Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > You’re being dishonest if you’re going to sit here and assert that, as a general rule, pro-choicers support any regulations on abortion clinics. Pro-choicers will not, and do not, even support regulating abortions clinics the same as outpatient clinics. Just look at the latest “row”, and I use the term lightly, over the Virginia legislature’s decision to impose new abortion clinic regulations (including state mandated inspections). No, you are being deliberately dishonest, I said: ‘pro-choicers support _regulations tied to evidence of improved facility and patient safety_ - approved by reputable medical associations such as the AMA, ACOG, etc, and not based on ideologically driven legislation pushed by lobbyists with no medical training.’ It is _you_ who are saying that pro-choicers oppose _any_ regulations on abortion clinics. Pro-choicers do not generally support facility regulations like mandating the number of parking spaces, length of grass, hospital size hallways and other ridiculous nonsense completely _unrelated to facility or patient safety._ Just tie these new regulations to evidence of improved facility and patient safety. Otherwise it is obvious these ‘regulations’ are nothing more than an attempt to bankrupt clinics by forcing them to invest in expensive remodeling in order to comply. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/67 "2013-04-14T21:26:13Z")
So when will it become mandatory for a patient to look at an ultrasound of his appendix and wait 72 hours before its removal? I mean, if regulation is about _safety_ and all… ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/68 "2013-04-14T22:01:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So when will it become mandatory for a patient to look at an ultrasound of his appendix and wait 72 hours before its removal? I mean, if regulation is about _safety_ and all… Well, his appendix is _ **HUMAN** _ after all… and we all know that’s what matters. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/69 "2013-04-14T22:32:07Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > No, you are being deliberately dishonest, I said: ‘pro-choicers support _regulations tied to evidence of improved facility and patient safety_ - approved by reputable medical associations such as the AMA, ACOG, etc, and not based on ideologically driven legislation pushed by lobbyists with no medical training.’ Just because you type it doesn’t make it true. > [@](#): > > It is _you_ who are saying that pro-choicers oppose _any_ regulations on abortion clinics. Because they do. You’d be hard pressed to find pro-choicers supporting any regulations on abortion clinics. Hell, even a common talking point among pro-choicers today is that we still don’t need abortion clinic regulations; rather, we need to create a “culture” in which women don’t have to go to the “Gosnells” of the world (just look at this thread, for example). > [@](#): > > Pro-choicers do not generally support facility regulations like mandating the number of parking spaces, length of grass, hospital size hallways and other ridiculous nonsense completely _unrelated to facility or patient safety._ Again, they don’t support any regulations at all, regardless of what they are. For argument’s sake, I’ll grant you that mandating the number of parking spaces and the length of grass are arbitrary requirements; but those aren’t the only requirements on the proverbial table. Pro-choicers frequently fight against other restrictions such as ensuring that all abortion doctors are licensed or even holding abortion clinics to the same standards as outpatient clinics. Even the size of the hallways, which you call “ridiculous”, serves a very real purpose. Again, taken from the Grand Jury Report on Gosnell: > [@](#): > > Ambulances were summoned to pick up the waiting patients, but (just as on the night Mrs. Mongar died three months earlier), no one, not even Gosnell, knew where the keys were to open the emergency exit. Emergency personnel had to use bolt cutters to remove the lock. **They discovered they could not maneuver stretchers through the building’s narrow hallways to reach the patients (just as emergency personnel had been obstructed from reaching Mrs. Mongar)**. To steal a common pro-choice slogan. You really don’t care about “women’s safety”; only that abortion remains (moderately) cheap and accessible. It’s the precise same failure which allowed Gosnell to go on with his business absolutely unimpeded. A fact I noticed you blatantly ignored. > [@](#): > > Just tie these new regulations to evidence of improved facility and patient safety. Otherwise it is obvious these ‘regulations’ are nothing more than an attempt to bankrupt clinics by forcing them to invest in expensive remodeling in order to comply. Great! So you at least support the hallway requirement then. (You won’t.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/70 "2013-04-14T22:46:33Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Even the size of the hallways, which you call “ridiculous”, serves a very real purpose. Again, taken from the Grand Jury Report on Gosnell: The report describes the hallways at Gosnell’s clinic as “narrow” and “cramped”. More so than a conventional clinic, I have to wonder? I have to assume also that a conventional clinic would have better control over its emergency doors. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/71 "2013-04-14T23:09:49Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > You’re being dishonest . . . > [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > No, you are being deliberately dishonest, . . . . [You are not to accuse other posters of dishonesty in Great Debates.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448632) Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/72 "2013-04-15T00:19:50Z")
**OMG** , where the heck did you get this idea that pro-choice people are against safe abortions? Safe abortion is pretty much the whole point. Hell, a lot of pro-choice people are explicitly against abortion, but know that it is a reality and that it needs to be safe and regulated rather than done on the black market in back alleys. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/73 "2013-04-15T02:59:14Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The report describes the hallways at Gosnell’s clinic as “narrow” and “cramped”. More so than a conventional clinic, I have to wonder? I have to assume also that a conventional clinic would have better control over its emergency doors. What do you mean by a conventional clinic? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/74 "2013-04-15T03:53:45Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So when will it become mandatory for a patient to look at an ultrasound of his appendix and wait 72 hours before its removal? I mean, if regulation is about _safety_ and all… Wasn’t there a bill introduced in some state legislature last year to impose restrictions on viagra similiar to abortion in order to “protect men”; like mandatory cardiac stress tests, invasive exams to verify impotence, and making men watch videos of priapisms being treated? ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/75 "2013-04-15T04:03:25Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > What do you mean by a conventional clinic? Abortion clinics that perform first trimester abortions are typically regulated by the same standards applied to medical facilities where patients receive oral or plastic surgery - not hospitals. Requiring abortion facilities that perform first trimester abortions to adhere to the same facility design regulations of newly built hospitals while not requiring the same regulations of clinics that perform procedures of the same degree of complexity and invasiveness are generally viewed as [TRAP](http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/trap_laws.html) (Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers) laws. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/76 "2013-04-15T04:08:45Z")
> [@Tom Tildrum](#): > > What do you mean by a conventional clinic? Well, I meant one that generally conforms to standard medical regulations about, y’know, not killing newborns and such. I’m sure better descriptors exist, but in any event it looks like Gosnell’s clinic had multiple problems other than how wide its hallways were, so using it as an example of what other clinics must do is problematic, at best. It’s kind of like saying “the murderer drove a car, so to prevent murders we should increase the regulation on who can drive cars.” At the very least, some information on Gosnell’s specific circumstances would help. Were the hallways of his clinic narrower and/or have more tight corners than typical hallways in other clinics? Were Gosnell’s hallways cluttered, disorganized? Even then, would wider hallways have helped Karnamaya Mongar? The Grand Jury described her survival chances as “slim”. Maybe even instant transport (once Gosnell finally got around to calling for it) wouldn’t have mattered. Gosnell’s a fuckup, I trust we can agree, who should be delicensed and convicted. Using him as a club to drive other abortion providers out of business is not a rational response, though. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/77 "2013-04-15T04:09:35Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > What do you mean by a conventional clinic? Im not sure what he meant by it but I have seen those around, they have a sign that says ‘Conventional Clinic’ and wondered what they were I know one thing, I would be concerned about going into an ‘unconventional clinic’ :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/78 "2013-04-15T04:13:09Z")
Fine, instead of “conventional”, I should have said “typical”. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/79 "2013-04-15T04:21:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Fine, instead of “conventional”, I should have said “typical”. Typical? Well again, I sure wouldnt feel good going into an ‘atypical clinic’ If someone was injured or died at a typical clinic, I suppose some people would say “that was soooo fucken typical of them” ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/80 "2013-04-15T04:59:36Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > …they have a sign that says ‘Conventional Clinic’ and wondered what they were Stadium seating, tour bus parking, catered box lunches. Of course, no one who’s anyone goes to the annual Convention of the Brotherhood of Abortion Patients anymore. They’re all at Abortapalooza. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557.md?page=5)