# Pro-lifers asking: Why isn't the Gosnell trial bigger news in the traditional media? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557 "2013-04-13T01:11:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/81 "2013-04-15T05:18:21Z")
The regulation issue is an important one, and I agree with pro-choicers that needless regulations that raise the cost of operating should not be imposed. However, I also wish liberals would approach ALL business regulation this way. Abortion clinics do not merit special consideration, and should be subject to all regulations affecting all medical clinics. If a regulation is considered too onerous for an abortion clinic, and unnecessary, we should be questioning why an urgent care clinic or dental clinic would be subject to the same regulation. One prudent regulation that I think should be imposed is that late term abortions should only be performed in hospitals, and only if two doctors confirm that the patient is likely to suffer damage to her physical health if she carries it to term. These late term clinics are like many online pharmacies, if you come in wanting something, you’ll get it whether or not its medically necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/82 "2013-04-15T05:36:22Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Stadium seating, tour bus parking, catered box lunches. Of course, no one who’s anyone goes to the annual Convention of the Brotherhood of Abortion Patients anymore. They’re all at Abortapalooza. Do they have a raffle and door prizes at the Abortapalooza? Maybe the door prizes could be STERILE instruments and stuff like that ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/83 "2013-04-15T06:40:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > One prudent regulation that I think should be imposed is that late term abortions should only be performed in hospitals, and only if two doctors confirm that the patient is likely to suffer damage to her physical health if she carries it to term. These late term clinics are like many online pharmacies, if you come in wanting something, you’ll get it whether or not its medically necessary. That’s garbage. [George Tiller](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller#Late_term_abortion) for example only aborted a healthy fetus if "two doctors certified that carrying the fetus to term would cause the woman “substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.” And forcing a woman to give birth to a hopelessly deformed or dead fetus is disgusting and purely an attempt to torment women. Why don’t you just go all the way and call for a law that requires a man to stand over her as she gives birth, slapping her and spitting on her over and over while screaming “slut!” ? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/84 "2013-04-15T06:52:36Z")
Yes, but Tiller’s 2nd doctor worked for him. As for your other argument, the law is clear: abortions can be outlawed after viability. That’s the way almost every other country does it and how almost all states in our country do it. If deformation makes it unworthy of life after it’s you know, alive and viable, then why not allow it to be killed after day 1? What’s so special about it’s birthday? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/85 "2013-04-15T07:04:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yes, but Tiller’s 2nd doctor worked for him. > > As for your other argument, the law is clear: abortions can be outlawed after viability. That’s the way almost every other country does it and how almost all states in our country do it. If deformation makes it unworthy of life after it’s you know, alive and viable, then why not allow it to be killed after day 1? What’s so special about it’s birthday? Because after its birthday, it’s not relying upon the biological support of another human being who has decided, for whatever reason, to withdraw that voluntary biological support. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/86 "2013-04-15T07:24:52Z")
If the baby is viable, it doesn’t need biological support. There’s no particular reason to kill it. If the woman doesn’t want it in her body anymore, that can easily be remedied. Women who went to Gosnell weren’t interested in terminating their pregnancy. All they had to do was wait a short time longer. They wanted their babies dead. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/87 "2013-04-15T07:25:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yes, but Tiller’s 2nd doctor worked for him… So you think a woman needing a late-term abortion should have to go to 2 different clinics? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/88 "2013-04-15T07:46:35Z")
That’s what Kansas law required. Well, not exactly, but it did require a “non-affiliated doctor” to make the determination along with the doctor performing the abortion. So I guess it could have all been done at Tiller’s clinic, so long as Tiller wasn’t employing the doctor at the clinic. Which shouldn’t have been a high bar to clear, unless you want to make sure you always get the answer you want. But states don’t even have to do that. California, a pretty liberal state I’m sure we’d all agree, bans late term abortions entirely. Seven states ban late term abortions unless the mother’s very life is in danger, and only five allow late term abortions for fetal defects: > **[Fetal Viability And Late Term Abortion: The Facts And The Law - Democratic...](https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5758875)** > > Fetal Viability And Late Term Abortion: The Facts And The Law Pennsylvania in particular also required two doctors to make the determination. That definitely wasn’t happening, since Gosnell was the only doctor at the clinic: [http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/government-and-you/state-governments/state-profiles/pennsylvania.html?templateName=template-161602701&issueID=3&ssumID=2800](http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/government-and-you/state-governments/state-profiles/pennsylvania.html?templateName=template-161602701&issueID=3&ssumID=2800) Pennsylvania’s post-viability abortion restriction states that no abortion may be provided after the 23rd week of pregnancy unless the attending physician and another physician who has examined the woman concur in writing that the procedure is necessary to preserve the woman’s life or to prevent a “substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.” The physician must use the procedure most likely to result in fetal survival unless in the physician’s good faith medical judgment that method poses a significantly greater risk of the woman’s death or a “substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function” of the woman than other available methods. A second physician must attend. 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. Ann. § 3211 (Enacted 1989). The directive that fetal survival had to be attempted was declared unconstitutional. However, in Gosnell’s case, these women were actually fully birthing these babies, THEN he killed them. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/89 "2013-04-15T08:08:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If the baby is viable, it doesn’t need biological support. There’s no particular reason to kill it. If the woman doesn’t want it in her body anymore, that can easily be remedied. Really? So you’ve decided that a much riskier, involuntary surgical procedure is an perfectly acceptable alternative to a voluntary abortion because it’s so “easy.” Because that’s respecting a woman’s bodily autonomy in what way? But you are misguided. You will find no physician or scientist anywhere that will tell you that artificial life support of a fetus is in any way superior to biological support. > [@](#): > > Preterm-premature babies (“preemies” or “premmies”) have an increased risk of death in the first year of life (infant mortality), with most of that occurring in the first month of life (neonatal mortality). Worldwide, prematurity accounts for 10% of neonatal mortality, or around 500,000 deaths per year.[65] In the U.S. where many infections and other causes of neonatal death have been markedly reduced, prematurity is the leading cause of neonatal mortality at 25%.[66] Prematurely born infants are also at greater risk for having subsequent serious chronic health problems as discussed below. > … > Preterm infants usually show physical signs of prematurity in reverse proportion to the gestational age. As a result they are at risk for numerous medical problems affecting different organ systems. > > ``` > Neurological problems include apnea of prematurity, hypoxic-ischemic encephalopathy (HIE), retinopathy of prematurity (ROP), developmental disability, transient hyperammonemia of the newborn, cerebral palsy and intraventricular hemorrhage, the latter affecting 25 percent of babies born preterm, usually before 32 weeks of pregnancy.[70] Mild brain bleeds usually leave no or few lasting complications, but severe bleeds often result in brain damage or even death.[70] Neurodevelopmental problems have been linked to lack of maternal thyroid hormones, at a time when their own thyroid is unable to meet postnatal needs.[71] > > ``` > > Children born preterm are more likely to have white matter brain abnormalities early on causing higher risks of cognitive dysfunction.[72] White matter connectivity between the frontal and posterior brain regions are critical in learning to identify patterns in language.[72] Preterm children are at a greater risk for having poor connectivity between these areas leading to learning disabilities.[73] > > Cardiovascular complications may arise from the failure of the ductus arteriosus to close after birth: patent ductus arteriosus (PDA). > > [ul] > [li]Respiratory problems are common, specifically the respiratory distress syndrome (RDS or IRDS) (previously called hyaline membrane disease). Another problem can be chronic lung disease (previously called bronchopulmonary dysplasia or BPD).[/li][li] Gastrointestinal and metabolic issues can arise from hypoglycemia, feeding difficulties, rickets of prematurity, hypocalcemia, inguinal hernia, and necrotizing enterocolitis (NEC).[/li][li] Hematologic complications include anemia of prematurity, thrombocytopenia, and hyperbilirubinemia (jaundice) that can lead to kernicterus.[/li][li] Infection, including sepsis, pneumonia, and urinary tract infection [3][/li][/ul] > > A large study on children born between 22 and 25 weeks who were currently at school age found that 46 percent had severe or moderate disabilities such as cerebral palsy, vision or hearing loss and learning problems. 34 percent were mildly disabled and 20 percent had no disabilities, while 12 percent had disabling cerebral palsy.[74] Who is financially responsible for the medical care incurred for both the woman’s Cesarean and the intensive medical care required for the preterm infant? If the child survives, where does the infant go after it leaves the hospital’s NICU? Who is responsible for any long-term care costs of a child who develops chronic illness as a result of preterm delivery? How much physical suffering is deemed too much; where do you draw the line? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/90 "2013-04-15T08:13:21Z")
If it’s viable, it’s a human being. Period. We don’t euthanize orphans. Are you suggesting that babies have no rights if unwanted? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/91 "2013-04-15T09:05:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If it’s viable, it’s a human being. Period. We don’t euthanize orphans. Are you suggesting that babies have no rights if unwanted? It’s human from conception. The egg is human. The sperm is human. Nobody disputes that it’s human. But it is not a biologically independent person. Period. Orphans are independent (biologically) human beings. I am not suggesting that babies have no rights. They, as independent human beings, certainly do. Babies are born. Fetuses are aborted. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/92 "2013-04-15T09:13:09Z")
But once outside the body and it’s viable, it’s a US citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/93 "2013-04-15T09:20:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But once outside the body and it’s viable, it’s a US citizen. Right. But you didn’t answer any of my questions. Do you force an unwilling woman to submit to a medically risky surgery to remove the fetus intact and alive? At what point in the viability spectrum? Who pays for all this expensive medical care? And how much suffering of the preterm infant is too much? How much suffering of the mother is over the line? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/94 "2013-04-15T09:25:01Z")
Here is my position in a nutshell: No person, having biological independence, should ever, for any reason, be forced, against his/her will, to relinquish bodily autonomy. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/95 "2013-04-15T09:45:22Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Right. But you didn’t answer any of my questions. > > Do you force an unwilling woman to submit to a medically risky surgery to remove the fetus intact and alive? At what point in the viability spectrum? Who pays for all this expensive medical care? And how much suffering of the preterm infant is too much? How much suffering of the mother is over the line? If for whatever reason the baby is alive once free of her body, her choices end right at that second and her wishes are irrelevant. The baby is entitled to all the benefits of being a US citizen and would be in the care of the state’s system for unwanted children. Also, viable fetuses should only be aborted if the woman’s physical health is actually in danger. Nations that allow such abortions for pure choice reasons are nearly as rare as nations that allow the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/96 "2013-04-15T09:48:24Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Here is my position in a nutshell: > > No person, having biological independence, should ever, for any reason, be forced, against his/her will, to relinquish bodily autonomy. I have sympathy for that position, but if we’re talking pure choice here, there’s 23 weeks to exercise that judgement. There’s also the matter of doctors’ wishes. Doctors cannot be forced to perform procedures they do not wish to except to save a life. There are very few providers(only one left actually) that are willing to terminate pregnancies in the third trimester. Planned Parenthood won’t even do it for you. The saying goes, “abortion is between a woman and her doctor.” That’s true. We’re not going to move the goalposts and say a woman is entitled to one whether a doctor is willing or not. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/97 "2013-04-15T09:59:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If for whatever reason the baby is alive once free of her body, her choices end right at that second and her wishes are irrelevant. The baby is entitled to all the benefits of being a US citizen and would be in the care of the state’s system for unwanted children. > > Also, viable fetuses should only be aborted if the woman’s physical health is actually in danger. Nations that allow such abortions for pure choice reasons are nearly as rare as nations that allow the death penalty. So you are in favor of requiring a woman to undergo a medically risky surgery to deliver a medically compromised preterm fetus even in cases in which she didn’t know she was pregnant, had no access to an early abortion, or is carrying a fetus with a medical anomaly that very well be life threatening. With the full knowledge that the resulting infant will likely suffer in the NICU, and potentially for the rest of its life? With full knowledge that the woman may never be able to have a normal, vaginal birth? For the love of sanity, why?! What is life if you can be forced into an involuntary surgical procedure to give birth to an infant that dies 48 hours later because it’s lungs are underdeveloped or its brain did not develop properly. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/98 "2013-04-15T10:19:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There’s also the matter of doctors’ wishes. Doctors cannot be forced to perform procedures they do not wish to except to save a life. There are very few providers(only one left actually) that are willing to terminate pregnancies in the third trimester. I like how you define _“intimidated by anti-abortion terrorists”_ as _“unwilling”_. Makes it sound all noble and ethical, rather than a matter of coercion at gunpoint by bigoted, woman hating religious fanatics. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/99 "2013-04-15T10:39:49Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > So you are in favor of requiring a woman to undergo a medically risky surgery to deliver a medically compromised preterm fetus even in cases in which she didn’t know she was pregnant, had no access to an early abortion, or is carrying a fetus with a medical anomaly that very well be life threatening. With the full knowledge that the resulting infant will likely suffer in the NICU, and potentially for the rest of its life? With full knowledge that the woman may never be able to have a normal, vaginal birth? > > For the love of sanity, why?! What is life if you can be forced into an involuntary surgical procedure to give birth to an infant that dies 48 hours later because it’s lungs are underdeveloped or its brain did not develop properly. Most of what you are talking about is covered by “threat to the physical health of the mother”. As for the deformed fetus, I rely on two principles here: first, a presumption that the laws covering this have been carefully considered: 45 states do not permit late term abortions if the fetus is unhealthy but the mother is and can deliver normally. Second, that a viable fetus is entitled to the same rights as an adult in the same situation. We don’t put down adults, we shouldn’t put down viable fetuses. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557/100 "2013-04-15T10:41:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I like how you define _“intimidated by anti-abortion terrorists”_ as _“unwilling”_. Makes it sound all noble and ethical, rather than a matter of coercion at gunpoint by bigoted, woman hating religious fanatics. I anticipated that response. There’s some merit to it, but not as much as you think. There are hundreds of abortion providers, all of whom face threats. The reason 99.9% of them refuse to do abort viable fetuses is due to conscience, not fear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-asking-why-isnt-the-gosnell-trial-bigger-news-in-the-traditional-media/655557.md?page=6)