# Pro-Lifers cannot think a fetus is a "person" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391 "2009-06-01T18:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/201 "2009-06-03T01:34:13Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > OK, fair enough. Then can we say that you believe that protecting the life of the unborn fetus is more important than addressing the pain of the rape victim? I don’t believe they’re mutually exclusive, but given that choice, yes, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/202 "2009-06-03T01:35:38Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I don’t believe they’re mutually exclusive, but given that choice, yes, I suppose. Short of allowing the victim to abort the unwanted fetus, how would you propose to alleviate her suffering? Gentle forehead stroking, perhaps? A trip to the Bahamas? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/203 "2009-06-03T01:35:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Drop kick, of course! Seriously, is there any question? No, no. Much more distance if you tee them up. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/204 "2009-06-03T01:37:44Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > Short of allowing the victim to abort the unwanted fetus, how would you propose to alleviate her suffering? Gentle forehead stroking, perhaps? A trip to the Bahamas? So, you’ve shifted to a different logical fallacy, eh? I suppose it’s just a variation on your last one. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/205 "2009-06-03T01:39:28Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > So, you’ve shifted to a different logical fallacy, eh? I suppose it’s just a variation on your last one. Answer the question. How do you propose to address the needs of the rape victim? It’s a simple question. I don’t understand why you’re having so much trouble with it, unless you just don’t have an answer that wouldn’t provoke ridicule. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/206 "2009-06-03T01:39:38Z")
> [@Flyhalf](#): > > So you care just a little bit then, but not enough to allow the woman to abort a pregnancy caused by rape? Is that it? And who said anything about toddlers? You’ve heard tell of these new-fangled analogies, haven’t you? They’re all the rage. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/207 "2009-06-03T01:40:49Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > You’ve heard tell of these new-fangled analogies, haven’t you? They’re all the rage. Sure. “Bread” is to “aluminum pole” as “fan dancer” is to \_\_\_\_\_\_\_. Comparing two things that aren’t the same is not an analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/208 "2009-06-03T01:42:42Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > Oh, let him have his strawman. I thought it best just to ignore that little bit of nonsense. “An analogy,” my ass - it’s not the same thing, and he knows it. > > A rape victim trying to rid herself of an unwanted pregnancy wouldn’t be waiting long to take care of it. I think it’s safe to say this would always occur in the first trimester (and probably within the first month). There’s no “little human” involved, just a growing clump of cells. > > I may be assuming too much, here, but I believe we’re seeing yet another case in which males have this, “there, there, honey, we’re sorry you got raped, but you won’t mind carrying the rapist’s baby too much, now will you?” attitude. That, coupled with the heavy male representation among the “scream at the women, shoot the doctors” crowd leads me to believe that it’s not a deep concern for human life that motivates these folks. It’s a control issue. “Women exist to carry my spawn, and their needs come second, if they count at all.” You have revolutionized Great Debates. Congratulations, you have eliminated the need to have two different positions, since you’re able to carry on both sides of the argument without assistance, what with your clairvoyance and all. Kudos, sparky! Well done! ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/209 "2009-06-03T01:44:53Z")
I give up. All we’re going to get out of **Stratocaster** is tap-dancing. He’s not willing to explain how he would deal with a real-life situation. This is shorthand for “I’m stuck for an answer, so I’m going to respond with snappy one-liners that simply evade the issue.” ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/210 "2009-06-03T01:44:55Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > Sure. “Bread” is to “aluminum pole” as “fan dancer” is to \_\_\_\_\_\_\_. > > Comparing two things that aren’t the same is not an analogy. Really? You can’t see anything analogous, relative to a pro-lifer’s axioms? Was completely lost on you? Hmm, that’s really interesting. Quite a curious perspective you seem to possess. Maybe someone will explain it to you. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/211 "2009-06-03T01:45:55Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Really? You can’t see anything analogous, relative to a pro-lifer’s axioms? Was completely lost on you? Hmm, that’s really interesting. Quite a curious perspective you seem to possess. Maybe someone will explain it to you. Yet another non-answer. Quite a roll you’re on. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/212 "2009-06-03T01:45:57Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > I give up. All we’re going to get out of **Stratocaster** is tap-dancing. He’s not willing to explain how he would deal with a real-life situation. This is shorthand for “I’m stuck for an answer, so I’m going to respond with snappy one-liners that simply evade the issue.” You’re um, really bad at this, aren’t you? There, there, keep trying. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/213 "2009-06-03T01:46:59Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > You’re um, really bad at this, aren’t you? There, there, keep trying. Wow. Do you ever run out of these? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/214 "2009-06-03T01:47:00Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > Yet another non-answer. Quite a roll you’re on. If you need someone to explain how that analogy sheds light on a pro-lifer’s beliefs, you’re really out of your depth here. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/215 "2009-06-03T01:48:02Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > If you need someone to explain how that analogy sheds light on a pro-lifer’s beliefs, you’re really out of your depth here. Sorry. And still no straight answer. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/216 "2009-06-03T01:49:34Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > And still no straight answer. Which question? How I would diminish the pain of the rape victim? Why is that relevant to the debate in this thread? Let’s suppose I have no good suggestion. Now what? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/217 "2009-06-03T01:50:03Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > And still no straight answer. Not to be unreasonably snarky or anything but I think there is your answer. Once you determine that the person you’re talking to isn’t responding, isn’t it time to move on? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/218 "2009-06-03T01:51:27Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Not to be unreasonably snarky or anything but I think there is your answer. > > Once you determine that the person you’re talking to isn’t responding, isn’t it time to move on? Yup. Time to write this one off as non-responsive. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/219 "2009-06-03T02:16:15Z")
> [@Early\_Out](#): > > Answer the question. How do you propose to address the needs of the rape victim? It’s a simple question. I don’t understand why you’re having so much trouble with it, unless you just don’t have an answer that wouldn’t provoke ridicule. What about my point? What if the rape victim wants to kill the rapist? Do we allow her to kill the rapist if it would make her feel better? Sometimes nothing can be done to help someone feel better. But if we suppose that aborting a perfectly healthy baby is immoral, why would it matter if that baby is the product of rape or not? You don’t get to kill a baby just because the baby was conceived by rape. If a developing embryo has the same ethical status as a baby, then you shouldn’t be able to kill the embryo either. It’s my understanding that modern forensic investigation of a rape will prevent pregnancy. I hesitate to say that it causes abortion because it depends on exactly what’s going on, but the rape investigation should ensure that any eggs don’t get fertilized, and any fertilized eggs don’t get implanted. And if that’s not standard procedure, it should be. Note that I’m perfectly fine with decriminalizing abortion for rape victims–since I’m in favor of decriminalizing all abortions. And I’d be very hesitant to criminalize abortion but leave an exception for rape–since that means anyone could have an abortion as long as she was willing to accuse someone of rape. Or do we wait until the trial is completed and the rapist is convicted, then allow the abortion? After how many months? Or do we allow abortion just on her say-so? Any such exception is bound to cause all sorts of unworkable problems. Better to decriminalize all abortions. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/220 "2009-06-03T03:24:35Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Can’t answer for most, only for myself. Huerta88 provided some excellent clarification, and I already answered this: I’m for that strategy that results in the least overall harm. If letting someone go free of a crime creates the best chance for more restrictive abortion laws, I’ll accept it. Really? Huerta88 clarified? It seems a great contradiction in logic to me. Here’s the relevant part. > [@](#): > > the argument that the specific intent required for murder is “intentionally killing someone known to be a live human being” (I don’t know if any state has phrased it exactly so, but it’s not crazy), then no, there could be NO crime, or maybe there is but it’s a less serious one, if the woman, firmly believing the fetus factually to be something other than a live human being, were found to lack the specified intent. I understand the impact of intent but to say there’s no real crime of homicide if the woman and the state don’t believe a fertilized egg is a person seems like giving over your own sense of morality to someone else’s judgment. Either that or it’s an indication that pro-lifers entertain the real possibility that they are wrong and a fertilized egg is not a human life. As I said, the KKK might kill Jews or blacks because they don’t consider them fully human but we wouldn’t consider it less of a crime because of what _they_ thought or how _they_ justified it. Honestly the whole intent thing doesn’t make sense form a pro-lifers POV if they think abortion is destroying a human life. I also find it intriguing that you claim you’re interested in doing the least harm. Lot’s of pro choice people feel the same way. We see an invasion of privacy and dictating what a woman can or can’t do with her own body as real harm. You also say that you’re willing to let someone go free of a crime if it helps the cause and restricts abortion. Do you think it will? Do you seriously see not being fully committed to the basic philosophy of pro-life as helping to restrict abortions? I’m also curious about what you think causes the least harm if the pro-life movement happened to succeed in making every abortion illegal. We’d have to face the reality that they would still happen. I guess then the women and doctors would clearly be criminals regardless of what they believed wouldn’t they? Then we’d also have more children in need to deal with wouldn’t we? I hope there’s also a plan to provide for these children you insist women must have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391.md?page=12)