# Pro-Lifers cannot think a fetus is a "person" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391 "2009-06-01T18:50:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/121 "2009-06-02T17:05:02Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Are you amending your original assertion? So I only have to kill abortionists if they are in my neighborhood? That’s nice to know, cause I’d rather not kill them, and the nearest clinic, much less abortion clinic is about 25 miles away. It’s called a hypothetical. The point is to conjure a situation that would be immediately relevant to you. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/122 "2009-06-02T17:05:52Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Fine. > > You still have a guy in your neighborhood decapitating little kids and throwing their bodies in a dumpster. Remember, this is a mass murderer of helpless children. > > Is marching in front of his house on occasion sufficient for you to express your feelings on the matter? Well one way you’d have to alter his analogy would be for it to actually be thousands of guys doing this. Not just one. If it was just one I think you’d have someone who’d handily take care of it. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/123 "2009-06-02T17:08:39Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is marching in front of his house on occasion sufficient for you to express your feelings on the matter? No you are right. It’s not. And neither is a simple killing. In fact, the only sufficient way is to sacrifice yourself stopping it from happening. That’s right, suicide bombing. Nothing short of dying for the cause AND killing the murderer. A full out war of attrition. Anything less means you aren’t really Pro Life. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/124 "2009-06-02T17:13:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It’s called a hypothetical. The point is to conjure a situation that would be immediately relevant to you. Geography is irrelevant to your hypothetical question. You are only applying that limitation in order to squirm out of having your same assertion applied back to you. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/125 "2009-06-02T17:18:02Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > No you are right. It’s not. And neither is a simple killing. In fact, the only sufficient way is to sacrifice yourself stopping it from happening. That’s right, suicide bombing. Nothing short of dying for the cause AND killing the murderer. A full out war of attrition. Anything less means you aren’t really Pro Life. :rolleyes: Nice dodge and non-answer. The point of the OP is this kind of rhetoric, if believed, demands some response greater than an occasional march. That or someone needs to convince me that murder is sufficiently opposed by marching once in awhile. Your and others studious avoidance of answering the question I think is reason to believe the premise of the OP is correct. Pro-lifers (generally) simply cannot truly hold the notion that abortion is murder. Murder akin to walking down the street and slamming a poleaxe through people’s heads and then dismembering them. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/126 "2009-06-02T17:32:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > March in front of his house on occasion sufficient for you? You have a misguided sense of direction. Are you equating occassionally marching in front of a house to massively coordinated acts of civil disobedience on par with the entirety of the Civil Right Movement? > [@](#): > > Clearly this kind of rhetoric has inflamed some to murder abortion doctors. That’s not “clear” in any sense of the word. You cannot and will not draw any direct link between the two, because none exists. Anything you come up with will be speculation and wild guessery. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/127 "2009-06-02T17:36:20Z")
WWJD? What would Jesus do, did He come to condemn sinners or to reach out to them? Murders are just another form of sin, even if you don’t accept abortion as murder is it a violation of the first (and only for a time) instruction God gave man - Be fruitful and multiply as such is sin. If you are guilty of breaking one rule you are guilty of breaking them all. Let the pro-lifer who is without sin cast the first stone. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/128 "2009-06-02T17:42:08Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > That’s not “clear” in any sense of the word. You cannot and will not draw any direct link between the two, because none exists. Anything you come up with will be speculation and wild guessery. It isn’t clear? > [@](#): > > My late father and I share part of the blame for the murder of Dr. George Tiller, the abortion doctor gunned down on Sunday. > > Until I got out of the religious right (in the mid-1980s) and repented of my former hate-filled rhetoric, I was both a leader of the so-called pro-life movement and a part of a Republican Party hate machine masquerading as the moral conscience of America. > > \ > > Like many writers of moral/political/religious theories, my father and I would have been shocked that someone took us at our word, walked into a Lutheran Church and pulled the trigger on an abortionist. But even if the murderer never read Dad’s or my words, we helped create the climate that made this murder likely to happen. > > \ > > Angry speech has become the norm in American religion from both the right and the left. Words are spoken which, when taken seriously, lead directly to violence by the unhinged and/or the truly committed. > > When evangelicals on the right call President Barack Obama a socialist, a racist, anti-American, an abortionist, not a real American - and, echoing the former vice president, someone who is weakening America’s defenses and making us less safe - the logical conclusion is violence. > > \ > > Regardless, the same hate machine I was part of is still attacking all abortionists as “murderers.” And today, once again, the “pro-life” leaders are busy ducking their personal responsibility for people acting on their words. > > SOURCE: [http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.tiller02jun02,0,1903113.story](http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.tiller02jun02,0,1903113.story) ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/129 "2009-06-02T17:46:20Z")
If someone says “We ought to stop abortions by changing the law” that’s fine with me. I don’t agree with it, but it is okay to make that statement as a matter of opinion. If someone says “We ought to stop abortions by killing every murderous baby killing abortionist, firebombing every abortion mill, and kidnapping every women who wants an abortion and forcing her to carry the preborn child to term on the planet” that is NOT fine by me. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/130 "2009-06-02T17:48:18Z")
Well, OK. Speculation and wild-assed guessery based on personal experience and in-depth knowledge of the people in question. Still… ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/131 "2009-06-02T17:48:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Your and others studious avoidance of answering the question I think is reason to believe the premise of the OP is correct. No. It’s been studiously explained to you over and over that belief in vigilante justice is completely separate from belief in any particular cause. We can lead a horse to water, but we can’t make him drink. And we don’t know where his oats are, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/132 "2009-06-02T17:54:50Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > WWJD? > > What would Jesus do, did He come to condemn sinners or to reach out to them? Murders are just another form of sin, even if you don’t accept abortion as murder is it a violation of the first (and only for a time) instruction God gave man - Be fruitful and multiply as such is sin. No, it isn’t. Not multiplying now doesn’t mean you’ll never do so. And “fruitfulness” isn’t necessarily harmed either - in fact I would imagine that in some cases \*not \*having an abortion could actually harm reproductive ability. Edit: And as far as knowing what Jesus would do, it would appear he violated that particular instruction, too. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/133 "2009-06-02T17:55:06Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > If someone says “We ought to stop abortions by changing the law” that’s fine with me. I don’t agree with it, but it is okay to make that statement as a matter of opinion. > > If someone says “We ought to stop abortions by killing every murderous baby killing abortionist, firebombing every abortion mill, and kidnapping every women who wants an abortion and forcing her to carry the preborn child to term on the planet” that is NOT fine by me. Good thing no one’s saying the latter! Why were we talking about it, then? As to the former, I repeat – “the law” has been handed down unto us by nine unelected Solons. How do you “change” that? The denial of democratic rights has, understandably, radicalized some of those who hold the anti-abortion opinion. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/134 "2009-06-02T17:58:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It isn’t clear? Hehe, the ad on your reformed anti-abortion activist article is for Spaceship Pew Pew. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/135 "2009-06-02T18:02:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It isn’t clear? No, it’s not, as evidenced by your very own post. He admits that those taking action are those who are already unhinged and fully committed, and that the actions would be taken even if the murderers had never heard the rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/136 "2009-06-02T18:02:31Z")
Just out of curiosity **Whack-a-Mole** , what would YOU do in this hypothetical? You live in an area where there is a maniac killing babies, only everything he is doing is legal and the majority of rational people you talk to about it kind of shrug their shoulders and say “yeah what he is doing isn’t great, but it is better than the alternative.” What exactly would you do? ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/137 "2009-06-02T18:10:56Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > That’s not “clear” in any sense of the word. You cannot and will not draw any direct link between the two, because none exists. Anything you come up with will be speculation and wild guessery. There is plenty of evidence that heated rhetoric can provoke violence and I think the spouters of heated rhetoric bear a big chunk of responsibility for the murder of Dr Tiller. My point (if I have one) is that fighting heated rhetoric with heated rhetoric is rarely productive. Instead of trying to make the other side angry by mischaracterizing their arguments what if those of us who are not on the extremes rallied around a goal that most people would probably support. How about “To find a solution that reduces the number of abortions without imposing government control over women’s bodies” It’s less catchy than “abortion is murder” or “keep your government out of my womb” but it might catch on. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/138 "2009-06-02T18:12:33Z")
As soon as there is a case of a serial killer abducting pregnant women and killing their fetuses against their will, I’ll let you know. I would think it is an outrage, but I also think it’s an outrage for a woman to have to carry a fetus against her will. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/139 "2009-06-02T18:18:43Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > Just out of curiosity **Whack-a-Mole** , what would YOU do in this hypothetical? You live in an area where there is a maniac killing babies, only everything he is doing is legal and the majority of rational people you talk to about it kind of shrug their shoulders and say “yeah what he is doing isn’t great, but it is better than the alternative.” What exactly would you do? Assuming I knew a mass murdering child killer was decapitating little kids in my neighborhood and the police wouldn’t stop him? I’d fire bomb the person’s house. FTR I do not think abortion doctors are murderers, far from it. ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391/140 "2009-06-02T18:21:59Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Assuming I knew a mass murdering child killer was decapitating little kids in my neighborhood and the police wouldn’t stop him? > > I’d fire bomb the person’s house. > > FTR I do not think abortion doctors are murderers, far from it. The police won’t stop him because everything he is doing is LEGAL. Hard for me to say what I would do exactly, but I generally side with the law, so I would probably be forming protest groups, yelling at people with megaphones, etc to do everything in my power to change the law, which seems to me basically what the pro-life crowd does. Vigilante justice doesn’t really do well for society. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-cannot-think-a-fetus-is-a-person/498391.md?page=8)