# Pro-lifers: Help me understand the exceptions for rape and incest **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2011, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493 "2011-07-01T10:53:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/61 "2011-07-04T01:51:54Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > And how would most of the kids turnout? You want to pay for them in jail and welfare? > It is difficult enough to raise a kid well when they have 2 loving, caring parents. Raising a kid conceived in rape is not a prescription for a healthy relationship or a healthy well adjusted citizen. > There is a cost to pay. It can not be religioned away. So kids without their biological parents all become bums or leeches or criminals? :dubious: In most cases, the mother will not want the child so they can be sent as foster children or put them up for adoption. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/62 "2011-07-04T04:01:41Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > If you make an exception for rape, then you’re not pro-life; you’re anti-orgasm. What. > [@alphaboi867](#): > > You can’t kill something that was never alive in the first place. What. > [@](#): > > Pregnancy & all that goes with it (up to & including childbirth) is way more intrusive to an unwilling woman than any rape. Even gang rapes don’t last more than a few hours. Rape can lead to permanent disfigurement or death. ---
**Author:** ![Napkin\_Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8dc957/32.png) [@Napkin\_Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napkin_Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/63 "2011-07-04T09:17:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Let’s not pretend that abortion is about pregnancy. Nine months is nothing, and the first three are pretty easy. It’s hardly ever about that… LOL. well, I’ve actually _been_ pregnant, so I can say with some certainty that you’re wrong with your blanket statement of ‘nine months is nothing and the first three are easy’. I can also tell you that I love being a parent, and would love to be a parent again, but will not go through another pregnancy, and would abort if I fell pregnant for the simple reason I won’t do that again. Not all women have the glowey rosy lovely soft-focus pregnancy, and I know many who suffered serious and ongoing health issues that don’t resolve themselves when the baby is born (and even the manner of birth can cause ongoing injury and suffering… I should know.) Fie on your ‘nine months is nothing’. sorry. I get really grumpy when people, males in particular, make blanket statements about how easy pregnancy is for a woman. I know he qualified with ‘it’s hardly ever about that’ but yeah, sometimes it is about that. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/64 "2011-07-04T14:07:27Z")
A lot of pro-lifers believe that an unborn fetus = human being. Held in that context, it should be obvious why these pro-lifers oppose abortion “even in cases of rape and incest”. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/65 "2011-07-04T15:37:30Z")
I’m pro-life and support the exceptions. I don’t find the quandary that difficult to solve. And yes, I believe that a fetus is a human being from conception and should have the same rights as you or I. The government in many instances find some things are more important than an individual’s life. War, as mentioned upthread is a good example. Executions for capital crimes is another and the best example is the fact that we allow cars and automotive transportation. Almost 50,000 people per year die in car accidents in the US. Yet we still have a transportation system because the value that we get from it is greater than 50,000 lives. So we have set the precedent that there are some things that will trump the sanctity of human life. In regards to abortion, I agree with others that if two heterosexuals have consensual sex, it has to be known that pregnancy can result from it, whatever form of birth control that is used. And since it was consensual, both soon to be parents willingly made the choice. In that circumstance, the fetus’ right to life outweighs the inconvenience that the parents will endure. In the case of a rape, the woman did not consent to be sexually penetrated. In addition to that, she will be forced to carry it to term and look at a child grow up that reminds her of the tragedy. You could almost say that under the circumstances which it was conceived, the fetus has no moral right to exist. I wouldn’t go that far, but it’s certainly diminished in my mind. As such, the right of the woman to be free from pain and trauma that she did not bring upon herself outweighs the right to life of the fetus. Others have said something to the effect of “Well, why does the government get to make that distinction and not the woman?” The government makes all kinds of distinctions based on the protections of basic rights like life. It tells me that I can drive 70 on the expressway, but not 71. Who are they to tell me what to do? They are the government. That’s what they do. ---
**Author:** ![Lightlystarched](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Lightlystarched](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightlystarched)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/66 "2011-07-05T15:50:45Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > In regards to abortion, I agree with others that if two heterosexuals have consensual sex, it has to be known that pregnancy can result from it, whatever form of birth control that is used. And since it was consensual, both soon to be parents willingly made the choice. In that circumstance, the fetus’ right to life outweighs the inconvenience that the parents will endure. So a person who absolutely knows they don’t wany any(more) children are to be denied sex for the rest of their lives? How is this not punitive? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/67 "2011-07-05T16:53:41Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Rape can lead to permanent disfigurement or death. So can pregnancy and childbirth. > [@KellyCriterion](#): > > A lot of pro-lifers believe that an unborn fetus = human being. Held in that context, it should be obvious why these pro-lifers oppose abortion “even in cases of rape and incest”. It is obvious. What’s less obvious is why they would _approve_ of the exceptions, which is why the OP is asking _that_ question instead. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/68 "2011-07-05T17:35:06Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Why is it “sophistry”? > > If someone thinks life beings at conception then it is never permissible to kill it regardless of the circumstances that led to it being there. Period. (In the case where the mother may die I can see it since the unborn will die without the mother anyway so the proper choice is to save at least one life.) > > Pro-lifers who bend on this idea are either: > > 1. Inconsistent in their reasoning and do not understand their own position > > 2. Attempting to get laws passed which probably wouldn’t with those restrictions…they can go for the rape/incest exception after they get abortion otherwise banned. > > #2 makes sense to me. It is just a pragmatic way to achieve their agenda. Those who are anti-abortion and adhere to #1 are just full of shit. I never have understood the reasoning behind people telling others that ‘their ideal/beliefs’ are without merit. If it doesn’t follow logically that you cannot fathom why they feel the way they do, take a look inside. I am sure you hold some beliefs that are illogical, Dr Spock. Inconsistent reasoning does not have to mean they don’t hold the belief. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/69 "2011-07-05T17:40:30Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > I never have understood the reasoning behind people telling others that ‘their ideal/beliefs’ are without merit. If it doesn’t follow logically that you cannot fathom why they feel the way they do, take a look inside. I am sure you hold some beliefs that are illogical, Dr Spock. Inconsistent reasoning does not have to mean they don’t hold the belief. If you believe the moon is made of green cheese I feel safe in saying that belief has no merit. What makes you think a belief is unable to be measured as to whether or not it has merit? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/70 "2011-07-05T17:48:18Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > I never have understood the reasoning behind people telling others that ‘their ideal/beliefs’ are without merit. If it doesn’t follow logically that you cannot fathom why they feel the way they do, take a look inside. I am sure you hold some beliefs that are illogical, Dr Spock. Inconsistent reasoning does not have to mean they don’t hold the belief. Well, if you don’t see a problem with logically inconsistent beliefs, you’re unlikely to understand the reasoning behind lots of things. I completely get that people totally believe the silly things they believe. I don’t doubt their _sincerity_. But are you saying no one should point out the logical inconsistencies? Why? Also, that would be _Mr._ Spock. ---
**Author:** ![Lightlystarched](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Lightlystarched](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightlystarched)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/71 "2011-07-05T19:38:01Z")
> [@Lightlystarched](#): > > So a person who absolutely knows they don’t wany any(more) children are to be denied sex for the rest of their lives? How is this not punitive? I’m still waiting for a pro-life answer to this. I am done with childbearing. Very happy with the two I’ve got. Dh and I have taken precautions to prevent another baby. However just to insure that we don’t have another baby, are we supposed to abstain from sex for the next 15 years??? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/72 "2011-07-05T20:04:49Z")
> [@Lightlystarched](#): > > I’m still waiting for a pro-life answer to this. > > I am done with childbearing. Very happy with the two I’ve got. Dh and I have taken precautions to prevent another baby. However just to insure that we don’t have another baby, are we supposed to abstain from sex for the next 15 years??? You’ve received the answer, you just don’t like it. No, you do not have to refrain from sex. I’m not ready for a child now, but I still have sex. The thing is, when a man and a woman lay really close together and a man puts his ho-hah into a woman’s he-he, sometimes a baby gets in the woman’s tummy. You know that, and I know that. We both know that birth control isn’t 100% effective. So why is it a big fucking surprise when pregnancy happens? You might not want it, might not be ready for it, but it is you and your partner’s responsibility to care for the child that you created. You might not want a child right now, but as I said earlier, the fetus’s right to life outweighs the inconvenience it presents for you. And me. ---
**Author:** ![Lightlystarched](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Lightlystarched](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightlystarched)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/73 "2011-07-05T20:44:47Z")
So, if I am a smoker, I deserve the lung cancer, eh? I mean, I knew it was a possibilty. Guess we should stop trying treating it. Stupid smokers deserve their fate! It is my punishment to bear a child because I deigned to have sex with my husband, according to you. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/74 "2011-07-05T22:29:01Z")
> [@Lightlystarched](#): > > So, if I am a smoker, I deserve the lung cancer, eh? I mean, I knew it was a possibilty. Guess we should stop trying treating it. Stupid smokers deserve their fate! > > It is my punishment to bear a child because I deigned to have sex with my husband, according to you. A child is not a disease nor is it punishment. That is how we all got here. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/75 "2011-07-05T23:10:11Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > In the case of a rape, the woman did not consent to be sexually penetrated. In addition to that, she will be forced to carry it to term and look at a child grow up that reminds her of the tragedy. You could almost say that under the circumstances which it was conceived, the fetus has no moral right to exist. I wouldn’t go that far, but it’s certainly diminished in my mind. As such, the right of the woman to be free from pain and trauma that she did not bring upon herself outweighs the right to life of the fetus. So a fetus is a person, same as you and me, and has the same rights to exist as you and I. And those rights can be overridden due to non-life threatening circumstances beyond the control of the fetus (such as being conceived as the result of rape). Now, it seems to me that you’re arguing that it is within the rightful scope of the powers of government to end the life of any of its citizens, regardless of any crimes they may or may not have committed. Which strikes me as the sort of thing most conservatives would find abhorrent. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/76 "2011-07-05T23:42:46Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > A child is not a disease nor is it punishment. It’s a punishment if that’s what it is being used for. And it’s a parasite if you don’t want it. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/77 "2011-07-06T12:50:54Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I’m pro-life and support the exceptions. I don’t find the quandary that difficult to solve. And yes, I believe that a fetus is a human being from conception and should have the same rights as you or I. … > > In the case of a rape, the woman did not consent to be sexually penetrated. In addition to that, she will be forced to carry it to term and look at a child grow up that reminds her of the tragedy. You could almost say that under the circumstances which it was conceived, the fetus has no moral right to exist. I wouldn’t go that far, but it’s certainly diminished in my mind. As such, the right of the woman to be free from pain and trauma that she did not bring upon herself outweighs the right to life of the fetus. > … So, when? In the first three months? First six month? First 5 years? At anytime? When is it OK to kill the “human being from conception with the same rights as you or I”? What about the exceptions for incest? Is that just to bring in probable rapes, or is abortion OK for incest between consenting adults? Or, is that exception to avoid birth defects? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/78 "2011-07-06T13:25:46Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If you believe the moon is made of green cheese I feel safe in saying that belief has no merit. > > What makes you think a belief is unable to be measured as to whether or not it has merit? One such as this one. If people hold the view, it holds merit, at the least to themselves. One might also find themselves pro-death penalty but anti-abortion… The question might not be whether life itself is sacred but whose life. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/79 "2011-07-06T13:32:51Z")
So in other words, in jtgain’s mind, a fetus is a person with the same rights as you or I, as long as it doesn’t inconvenience its mother in ways HE finds unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493/80 "2011-07-06T13:34:41Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Well, if you don’t see a problem with logically inconsistent beliefs, you’re unlikely to understand the reasoning behind lots of things. > > I completely get that people totally believe the silly things they believe. I don’t doubt their _sincerity_. But are you saying no one should point out the logical inconsistencies? Why? > > Also, that would be _Mr._ Spock. Touche. (Mr) The logical inconsistencies don’t change an arbitrary line in the sand though? The fact that the solution would murky the already murky water is telling. Rape cases where the woman doesn’t want the baby would pose a serious hurdle. Incest, well I’ve heard there can be birth defects. I saw a question posed “If the person performing the rape was the one impregnated, can she be forced to terminate?” Would that even be a real question brought before a real jury? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-help-me-understand-the-exceptions-for-rape-and-incest/587493.md?page=5)