# Pro-lifers, pregnancy, medical costs **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597 "2011-09-17T04:33:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/161 "2011-09-30T20:21:35Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Then surely those qualities aren’t harmed by abortion? Just as an actual mother could well exhibit no motherliness. But those desirable qualities are repressed from expressing themselves in a society that does not value the unborn. Repressed qualities can not grow. Therefor, perhaps not harmed, that is arguable, but certainly delayed. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/162 "2011-09-30T21:57:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Besides getting into issues about people in comas and locked in syndrome and people with dementia etc., this (in bold) is a opinion, not a fact, it is a belief that you are free to believe in but has no basis in fact. > > We do not understand the human brain enough to make such a statement as you made, and things like organ transplant memories from the donors stand in contrast that we understand how the brain works when it comes consciousness. :rolleyes: “Organ transplant memories from donors”. Yeah, sure. And we understand the brain well enough to say that a brain like that of a fetus that doesn’t function like a born human brain, and most of which is consumed and destroyed before birth during the growth process is not the same as a fully functional human brain. It’s not a person, it’s just scaffolding, the basis for future growth. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > That is, quite frankly, ridiculous. It’d be like arguing the following: “Well, the law is based on the fact that he’s White and he’s Black” in order to rationalize slavery. That is, the “fact”-- and, really, what you typed out is about as far removed from a fact as you can get-- is wholly irrelevant to the actual issue. Except that claiming that blacks are inferior lacks scientific support, and there certainly isn’t the gross difference in function that there is between woman and fetus. Blacks aren’t all mindless lumps dependent on life support. And yes, it is a fact that a fetus is mindless and yes, women are really people no matter how much it offends you. And yes, the facts are quite often the basis of laws; especially just laws, naturally. > [@kanicbird](#): > > But those desirable qualities are repressed from expressing themselves in a society that does not value the unborn. A society that “values the unborn” is a society devoted to the hatred and abuse of women. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/163 "2011-09-30T22:53:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: “Organ transplant memories from donors”. Yeah, sure. > > And we understand the brain well enough to say that a brain like that of a fetus that doesn’t function like a born human brain, and most of which is consumed and destroyed before birth during the growth process is not the same as a fully functional human brain. It’s not a person, it’s just scaffolding, the basis for future growth. > A society that “values the unborn” is a society devoted to the hatred and abuse of women. You are one of the more religiously indoctrinated persons I know, your views of facts are defined by the paternal (Abraham) religions, if it doesn’t fit the framework you will blindly disregard it (as you did here), and if it fits your religious framework, even if it’s not a fact (in the case of your previous post) you will cling on to it and claim it is a fact. You have become the very thing what you are against. Religions do have some truths in them mixed in with a lot of lies, you are simply disregarding the few truths because you disregard the religion out of hand, and miss those critical parts. A society that values all people values women, once you start devaluing a segment of the population then the door is open to devalue others. How can you value a woman if you devalue her role? You can’t, if you devalue children you are devaluing women. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/164 "2011-09-30T23:09:44Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Religions do have some truths in them mixed in with a lot of lies, you are simply disregarding the few truths because you disregard the religion out of hand, and miss those critical parts. Religion is worthless and can be discarded entirely with no loss. > [@kanicbird](#): > > A society that values all people values women, once you start devaluing a segment of the population then the door is open to devalue others. How can you value a woman if you devalue her role? You can’t, if you devalue children you are devaluing women. A fetus is not a child, nor is it a person. And women are not brood mares. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/165 "2011-09-30T23:28:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Religion is worthless and can be discarded entirely with no loss. Then do it, your life has been defined by them, it’s time for you to break free and leave them behind. I’m for you brother. > [@](#): > > A fetus is not a child, nor is it a person. And women are not brood mares. A fetus can be a child without a woman being a brood mare - those are not linked, and to the other extent if the fetus is not regarded as a child the woman is more likely to be considered a brood mare. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/166 "2011-10-01T03:13:18Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > A fetus can be a child without a woman being a brood mare - those are not linked, and to the other extent if the fetus is not regarded as a child the woman is more likely to be considered a brood mare. Nonsense. They are most certainly linked; the whole point of defining a fetus as a “child” is to excuse the oppression and abuse of women. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/167 "2011-10-01T11:56:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense. They are most certainly linked; the whole point of defining a fetus as a “child” is to excuse the oppression and abuse of women. This is very sad, as the truth it is quite opposite, it is the recondition of the child in the womb that gets the woman her rightful place in society. The current system where children in the womb are not considered people that leads to the oppression of women. This came to me last night, I claim divine revelation on it: Women have been silenced by false believe that the child in the womb is not a child, but woe to those who come between a momma bear and her cub, women will no longer be silent on this, they will know the truth of life and they will roar as the bear proclaiming this is my child which you will not harm anymore, no one will be able to stand against her and she will not allow anyone to harm her child. Abortion debate ended ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/168 "2011-10-01T11:56:32Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Then do it, your life has been defined by them, it’s time for you to break free and leave them behind. I’m for you brother. > > A fetus can be a child without a woman being a brood mare - those are not linked, and to the other extent if the fetus is not regarded as a child the woman is more likely to be considered a brood mare. Since humans belong to the animal kingdom(Like it or not,) If a person was given a Horse’s fetus when they were told they were buying a horse for thousands of dollars they would surely object. Nor would they want a dozen eggs with unformed chickens if they wanted to have a chicken BBQ. That is one of the reasons that abortion is not legal after it becomes recognizable as a person(except in a case of it costing a woman her life) . Our laws are not based on any religion, just as we wouldn’t allow a lot of things that go on in a extremist Muslim led Government! No one can force a woman to have an abortion,and the law protects her rights! ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/169 "2011-10-01T13:29:46Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > . **Our laws are not based on any religion,** just as we wouldn’t allow a lot of things that go on in a extremist Muslim led Government! No one can force a woman to have an abortion,and the law protects her rights! Explain how blue laws are not based on religion. My statement is our laws are from opinions not facts. I would say some of those are religious opinions. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/170 "2011-10-01T13:43:34Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Since humans belong to the animal kingdom(Like it or not,) If a person was given a Horse’s fetus when they were told they were buying a horse for thousands of dollars they would surely object. If the horse was very old on it’s deathbed they would surely object also, full disclosure I would support - I hope we can agree on this. & is this how you want to treat the elderly and sickly, as non-people without rights - with the fetus at least they should grow to full health, not so with someone at the end of their live. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/171 "2011-10-01T21:00:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This is very sad, as the truth it is quite opposite, it is the recondition of the child in the womb that gets the woman her rightful place in society. The current system where children in the womb are not considered people that leads to the oppression of women. Pure nonsense, as well as being an insult to women who are infertile or childless by choice. They are not brood mares, and popping out offspring is not the automatic center of their existence. > [@kanicbird](#): > > This came to me last night, I claim divine revelation on it: In other words, you made it up. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Abortion debate ended Hardly. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/172 "2011-10-01T23:24:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Pure nonsense, as well as being an insult to women who are infertile or childless by choice. They are not brood mares, and popping out offspring is not the automatic center of their existence. > > In other words, you made it up. > > Hardly. Thank you brother, as the scriptures say when two or more are gathered in His name He is with us - highest praise to the Lord. Women will end the abortion debate by their very choice, they will refuse to abort because they will know in their hearts that that is their child - they will not accept aborting their child. This will lift all women out of the oppression they have been suffering under. This will empower women greatly and they will demand from society the resourced their children need and no one will be able to stand against them. Let me ask you something brother, if the above is true and the oppression of women would truly end by the above, would you support it? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/173 "2011-10-02T01:05:04Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Let me ask you something brother, if the above is true and the oppression of women would truly end by the above, would you support it? Just to add, since you usually dodge such a question, what you have to answer for yourself is if you really support the end to the oppression of women or are you really just in support in opposition to paternal religions (which just happens to oppress women). What is your motivation here? Do you really want to see women take their rightful place as powerful, loved and valued members of society and accepted as such by the patriarchal religions or would you rather see destruction of the patriarchal religions? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/174 "2011-10-02T01:52:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Thank you brother, as the scriptures say when two or more are gathered in His name He is with us - highest praise to the Lord. :rolleyes: > [@kanicbird](#): > > Women will end the abortion debate by their very choice, they will refuse to abort because they will know in their hearts that that is their child - they will not accept aborting their child. This will lift all women out of the oppression they have been suffering under. This will empower women greatly and they will demand from society the resourced their children need and no one will be able to stand against them. > > Let me ask you something brother, if the above is true and the oppression of women would truly end by the above, would you support it? I’m pro-choice; pro-choice people have no problem with women choosing to have children. Obviously. But there’s zero chance that it would work out that way; having baby after baby until it drives you into starvation by poverty or death by childbirth is not going to lift anyone’s oppression. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Just to add, since you usually dodge such a question, what you have to answer for yourself is if you really support the end to the oppression of women or are you really just in support in opposition to paternal religions (which just happens to oppress women). What is your motivation here? > > Do you really want to see women take their rightful place as powerful, loved and valued members of society and accepted as such by the patriarchal religions or would you rather see destruction of the patriarchal religions? Religion of all varieties is insane and destructive and should be eliminated. And patriarchal religions by definition won’t ever accept women as powerful members of society; they wouldn’t be patriarchal if they did. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/175 "2011-10-02T11:38:06Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Explain how blue laws are not based on religion. > > My statement is our laws are from opinions not facts. I would say some of those are religious opinions. The Blue laws were abolished many years ago, when the right to shop on Sunday and the use of contraceptives were the law! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/176 "2011-10-02T11:42:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > If the horse was very old on it’s deathbed they would surely object also, full disclosure I would support - I hope we can agree on this. & is this how you want to treat the elderly and sickly, as non-people without rights - with the fetus at least they should grow to full health, not so with someone at the end of their live. There is a big difference…the already born are a part of society and deserve all the help and protection they need. If a horse is full grown and even if it is a winning race horse it is put down to save it pain. Our society doesn’t kill the elderly or the ill, but work hard to help them in any way possible. A fetus or fertile egg is not yet formed into a person that can live independent of the mother that is a big difference than a fully formed human person!!! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/177 "2011-10-02T11:46:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Thank you brother, as the scriptures say when two or more are gathered in His name He is with us - highest praise to the Lord. Women will end the abortion debate by their very choice, they will refuse to abort because they will know in their hearts that that is their child - they will not accept aborting their child. This will lift all women out of the oppression they have been suffering under. This will empower women greatly and they will demand from society the resourced their children need and no one will be able to stand against them. > > Let me ask you something brother, if the above is true and the oppression of women would truly end by the above, would you support it? The scriptures are meaningless words to an unbeliever of the people who wrote it. It is the words of some other human being many years ago and just agreed upon by some religion, which I noticed you called in an earlier Quote as evil!!! Beliefs cannot be used as facts, unless they are proven! ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/178 "2011-10-03T00:31:14Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > The Blue laws were abolished many years ago, when the right to shop on Sunday and the use of contraceptives were the law! What country do you live in? Here in the US many places it is illegal to buy alcohol on Sundays, some have restrictions for Sunday like you have to wait till noon. Also there are noise ordinances that apply only on Sunday morning. The point is all law is **ONLY** opinion I don’t believe there is any law by man that is fact. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/179 "2011-10-03T00:50:48Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > There is a big difference…the already born are a part of society and deserve all the help and protection they need. Why do you draw the line at birth? The unborn certainly are considered by many, including the mothers who carry them, to be fully human and already part of society, and since these unborn children effect the life of the mother they are unquestionable part of society already, no different from you or I as our part of society is only to the degree we can effect it. > [@](#): > > If a horse is full grown and even if it is a winning race horse it is put down to save it pain. Our society doesn’t kill the elderly or the ill, but work hard to help them in any way possible. Even hear of Dr Kovorckian (I’m sure I butchered the spelling). But it is a legitimate debate. The rights of the people at the end of their natural life. Also BTW the seamen from a prize horse is worth a considerable amount of money, how much more a in the womb fetus horse (probably a hell of a lot more then a end of it’s life horse). Therefore I contend even in the womb a fetus has more value to society then the elderly. > [@](#): > > A fetus or fertile egg is not yet formed into a person that can live independent of the mother that is a big difference than a fully formed human person!!! It’s a matter of degree, does that disqualify their soul, just because they are dependent on another for a time. In many beliefs we are all fetal children of mother earth, totally completely dependent on another actual living being. You are free to ignore Karma and the scriptures ‘you reap what you sow’, but that does not prevent it’s effect. As we treat the unborn we will be treated, there simply is no way around this. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597/180 "2011-10-03T01:04:40Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > The scriptures are meaningless words to an unbeliever of the people who wrote it. It is the words of some other human being many years ago and just agreed upon by some religion, which I noticed you called in an earlier Quote as evil!!! Religion is allowed as a learning process, perhaps a needed evil for a time. The words of scripture are worse then meaningless in the hands of the unbeliever IMHO (as very evident from your post BTW). I am not about religion. > [@](#): > > Beliefs cannot be used as facts, unless they are proven! I am not using them as facts, I am using them as truths. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-pregnancy-medical-costs/596597.md?page=10)