# "Pro-lifers want to control women's bodies" - Okay, but........why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2019, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330 "2019-05-22T02:24:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/101 "2019-05-23T14:28:53Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > They want to control women’s _sexuality_. > > Men want to control it for obvious reasons and women want to control it because they feel threatened by single women that are sexually active. (Or home wreckers as they see them). There’s a quote that goes something like: “Sexual morality is the trade unionism of women.” I wouldn’t go that far, especially today, although it may be true that some women may not have much influence on their partner beyond sexual and domestic roles. How much overlap is there between people who want to use the law to ban abortion in most/all cases and people who are against gay marriage? How about public school prayer? If there is significant overlap, maybe we should look at what those groups have in common to know what it’s about. Related: Remember how the Old Testament treats women as chattel? Hunter-gatherers and Afghan tribemens will raid other groups for portable goods, cattle and women. Chimpanzees will raid each other for females. Combine that with the patriarchal view that if you don’t control your “own” women, you can’t be said to control anything. Control over women is control over the most fundamental capital good; Baby factories that allow you to replace losses and grow the tribe. The white supremacist 14 words go: “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children,”. Abortion decreases the number of white children who will grow up to either be available for war (men) or make more white children (women). If abortion had been available in Germany, the Nazis would have seen it as a Jewish conspiracy to kill Aryan children. We see the equivalent here. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/102 "2019-05-23T15:04:22Z")
So when the demonstrators get up in the morning, bundle up in jackets and prepare to attend the annual March for Life in Washington DC, do people think they are motivated by “Let’s demonstrate on behalf of unborn life” or “Let’s control some uteri today?” What do you think is really going on in their minds? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/103 "2019-05-23T15:15:20Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So when the demonstrators get up in the morning, bundle up in jackets and prepare to attend the annual March for Life in Washington DC, do people think they are motivated by “Let’s demonstrate on behalf of unborn life” or “Let’s control some uteri today?” What do you think is really going on in their minds? Thinking you’re motivated by something and being motivated by it are distinct. It’s also possible to be _partly motivated_ by Reason\_A which is the reason that’s more socially accepted and which may be easier to justify to yourself while being _mainly motivated_ by Reason\_B which is far less socially accepted and may be much harder to justify to oneself. You’ve never given yourself a bullshit reason to procrastinate or indulge while keeping your real motivation quiet, even to yourself? I would ask what possible reasons it could have to bother them so much, even reasons that may not be PC. Then I’d ask when the modern anti-abortion movement started ('70s) and among what group (white Evangelicals). US white Evangelicals didn’t use to be so anti-abortion. It became a banner for them, though, like planting a flag on a prominent point to show you’re in control. Many of them may also feel unwanted/unloved/unlovable and be projecting that unto fetuses. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/104 "2019-05-23T15:28:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What do you think is really going on in their minds? I’m SOOOOO gonna stick it to those baby-killing liberals! ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/105 "2019-05-23T16:10:24Z")
**Velocity** , I don’t think the majority of pro-lifers protest with the thought “Let’s deprive women of their bodily autonomy!” in the forefront of their mind. But I do think this thought does pass through their mind: “When you choose to bring new life into this world, your naturally forego certain rights.” For pro-lifers it simply doesn’t matter that the “you” just happens to be only women and that these “certain rights” have been conceptualized as inalienable in all other respects. For instance, are pro-lifers demanding that parents be forced to donate a kidney to their kidney-impaired children they chose to bring into this world? Well, no, because most people can see how crazy it is to demand someone give up a kidney given the risks involved with major surgery and losing a major organ. The parent may suck as a human being for refusing to help their kid, but the cost of their suckiness would be outweighed by the suckiness of a society that prosecuted people for choosing not to be organ donors. Another right that we hold sacred is the right to engage in unhealthy and high-risk behaviors. It is not against the law for someone to eat nothing but corn chips and orange soda and I suspect most conservatives would be vehemently opposed to such legislation ("We don’t need no NANNY STATE!) But if abortion is banned, miscarriages must be investigated for the law to have any decent teeth. If a woman is dragged to the police station by her angry mother with bloody sheets in tow and the woman admits to eating nothing but corn chips and orange soda for the past five months, does the investigation end there? Or does she get charged with negligent homicide? Why shouldn’t she be, if her bodily autonomy is secondary to her fetus’s survival? Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/106 "2019-05-23T17:48:35Z")
This is what happens when an issue gets as polarizing as abortion. The other side must be evil. One side “wants to control women’s bodies” or “punish women for having sex.” The other side is a bunch of “baby murderers.” Of course, none of the above is true. At least not for 99% of the folks on either side. It’s either a question of “at what point does life become human” or “at what point is a human life worth saving?” That’s really all there is to it. Everything else goes way off track with loaded questions and logical fallacies. I cannot imagine a pro-lifer who thinks a fetus is not a human life, or at least not one worth saving, but also thinks we cannot allow abortion because we need to punish women with unexpected pregnancies. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/107 "2019-05-23T18:12:58Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I cannot imagine a pro-lifer who thinks a fetus is not a human life, or at least not one worth saving, but also thinks we cannot allow abortion because we need to punish women with unexpected pregnancies. [Terry, Randall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_Terry). Leader of beforementioned right to life movement (“Operation Rescue”). I would not say he “thinks a fetus is not a human life” but I would quite seriously accuse him of not giving a rat’s proverbial ass about whether or not a fetus is a human life. When he became of the opinion that enough progress had been made on the abortion front to open a new assault, he went directly for contraception. He was pretty [explicit](http://www.talkleft.com/story/2005/03/26/846/59521/media/Randall-Terry-s-Unconventional-Family) over the years about wanting the return of a moral world in which women were made ashamed if they were promiscuous, a world in which they would have pregnancy visited upon them as punishment for sex and would have to remain pregnant if they became pregnant, so as to give other women a warning that this could happen to them if they didn’t behave themselves. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/108 "2019-05-23T18:50:14Z")
> [@bump](#): > > … > > Personally, I suspect that the Catholic Church will eventually relent on birth control, especially the sorts that prevent conception as opposed to implantation, but I don’t see them ever relenting on abortion. > The other thing is that the anti-abortion side isn’t a monolithic bloc- it’s a weird coalition of Catholics, Protestants, Evangelicals, and people who just don’t believe in aborting fetuses for whatever reason. … Except that Catholics are not a power voting bloc in the South. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/109 "2019-05-23T20:46:50Z")
I give you one REP. SCOTT DESJARLAIS, R-Tenn: > **['Pro-Life' Congressman Who Urged Abortions for Ex-Wife and Mistress Is...](https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2013/07/24/desjarlais-pro-life-congressman-who-urged-abortions-for-ex-wife-and-mistress-is-running-again)** > > 'Tennesseans know they can count on me to never compromise on independent, conservative principles,' says congressman. … \*turbulent year punctuated by revelations he urged a mistress and his ex-wife to have abortions. The congressman publicly opposes legal access to abortion… \* > **[Scott DesJarlais](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_DesJarlais)** > > Scott Eugene DesJarlais (/ˈdeɪʒɑːrleɪ/; born February 21, 1964) is an American politician and physician serving as the U.S. representative for Tennessee's 4th congressional district since 2011. The district stretches across East and Middle Tennessee. He is a member of the Republican Party. > DesJarlais was born in 1964 in Des Moines, Iowa, to Joe DesJarlais, a barber, and Sylvia, a registered nurse. He grew up in Sturgis, South Dakota. Over ten years he, his parents and his brother and sister b... \*Scandals In October 2012 the Huffington Post obtained a transcript of a September 2000 phone conversation in which DesJarlais pressured a mistress to get an abortion.[19][20] DesJarlais repeatedly denied that he himself had taped the conversation. In October he wrote to supporters on Facebook, “The media wrongly reported that I recorded the conversation myself. I was recorded unknowingly and without my consent.”[21] Nine days before the general election a second woman came forward to state that she began dating DesJarlais while she was his patient. She alleged that the two smoked marijuana together and that he prescribed opioids for her while she was at his house.[22][23] Two weeks after DesJarlais won the 2012 election, the Chattanooga Times Free Press obtained a full transcript of DesJarlais’s 2001 divorce proceedings.[24] The transcript revealed that DesJarlais had admitted under oath to at least six sexual relationships with people he came in contact with while chief of staff at Grandview Medical Center in Jasper, Tennessee. Among them were three co-workers, two patients and a drug representative.[25] The transcript also revealed that his former wife had had two abortions,[25][26][27] and that DesJarlais had admitted under oath that he and his former wife had recorded the phone conversation with the mistress.[21] “One of the biggest mistakes I made was I commented to the press before I had the opportunity to go back and read a transcript that was 13, 14 years old,” he said in an interview with the Knoxville News Sentinel. “It was never my intention to mislead anyone, and had I read this, I don’t think the inaccuracies that occurred would have taken place.”[21] Three weeks after he won the election, DesJarlais said on a conservative talk radio show that “God has forgiven me” and asked “fellow Christians” and constituents “to consider doing the same.”[28]\* ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/110 "2019-05-23T23:14:52Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > “Logic aside”, indeed. > > Ranting about reinforcing the patriarchal order might make a degree of sense if so many anti-abortion rights types weren’t women. > > The overwhelming factor here is fervent opposition to Killing Unborn Babies, not Serving The Patriarchy. > > I would normally say that misrepresenting one’s enemies’ motives is harmful to the cause, but in this case it’s just dishonest. Oh I like how you capitalized Killing Unborn Babies. Shit, why not just write it in all caps, then: KILLING UNBORN BABIES! How about a ban on masturbation, while you’re at it. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/111 "2019-05-23T23:20:50Z")
They capitailzed ‘Serving The Patriarchy’ too. Maybe they just wanted to characterize it as an ethos. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2019, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/112 "2019-05-23T23:45:16Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So when the demonstrators get up in the morning, bundle up in jackets and prepare to attend the annual March for Life in Washington DC, do people think they are motivated by “Let’s demonstrate on behalf of unborn life” or “Let’s control some uteri today?” What do you think is really going on in their minds? If some of there placards demanded available health care for all pregnant women, I’d believe a lot more in their concern for the unborn. I think it is more “here is my opinion on where life begins, and I won’t control your uterus unless you disagree with me.” That’s versus “here is my opinion on when life begins, and I won’t control your uterus period.” ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/113 "2019-05-24T00:39:05Z")
Back in the day, women who were morally loose enough to fornicate and have unwanted pregnancies couldn’t easily blend in. Their bastard children were obvious products of their depravity. Townsfolk knew who was legitimate or who wasn’t, who was of good, wholesome parentage and who were trashy and nasty. This natural order of things made things simple, predictable, and oddly comforting. By playing by the rules, you earned the right to judge those that didn’t. You earned belonging. Women who didn’t play by the rules—as evident by their bastards—would earn stigma and shame. Abortion screws up this “natural” order. A women can sleep around and get pregnant, but not have her life and reputation ruined. She can blend in as though she is just as good and worthy as the married, madonna-like women. Who do you know whom to judge? You lose the satisfaction of seeing yourself as better than other people, when the products of their wantoness can be erased like they never happened. Also, if she can just go and get an abortion like no big deal, the costs-benefits of sluttiness changes. Good women who stay chaste have one less reason to do so. Its like finding out everybody’s going to Heaven: suddenly reading the Bible and tithing every Sunday seems less critical. Chaste women now feel like they have missed out, like their sacrifice is for naught. But what do men lose from abortion? Men that are loyal to patriarchy want power to stay in the hands of men. They fear and distrust anything that threatens this setup, and that includes anything that frees women from the burdens imposed by their reproductive systems. Men enjoy knowing they can get away with things that women can’t because it reinforces their sense of male superiority. It makes them feel strong and free when the world keeps women weak and afraid, suffering because of something men are immune to by virtue of their maleness. Take that away with legalized abortion, and you might as well make men and women equal to one another. That shiny brass ring of male privilege loses some of its shine. And then there’s a bunch of people who approach this whole thing in an unthinking manner. Week-old embryos are characterized as if they are chubby-faced babies because why not? to these people. I mean, it is kind of fun to play pretend in this way. Until they find out their tweenaged daughter has a missed period…then watch how quickly these precious “grand babies” become mere clots these people pray ends up on a maxi pad. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/114 "2019-05-24T01:39:25Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Bullshit, the pro life side cares absolutely nothing about life. Oh, please, that’s nonsense. Look, I agree with you that far too many on the pro-life side are really pro-birth, not pro-life, and that we, the pro-lifers, have a responsibility to deal with those people, but all of us, or at least the vast majority of us, do indeed care about life. You persuade nobody with that kind of rhetoric. I’m sure it feels good, I’m sure you score a few points with the peanut gallery, but it accomplishes nothing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/115 "2019-05-24T01:52:06Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Oh, please, that’s nonsense. > > Look, I agree with you that far too many on the pro-life side are really pro-birth, not pro-life, and that we, the pro-lifers, have a responsibility to deal with those people, but all of us, or at least the vast majority of us, do indeed care about life. > > You persuade nobody with that kind of rhetoric. I’m sure it feels good, I’m sure you score a few points with the peanut gallery, but it accomplishes nothing. Some few do. But many, like REP. SCOTT DESJARLAIS, R-Tenn, dont give a shit about unborn babies or “Life” . It’s all about suckering and lying to their bible thumbing constituents, who they have riled up into believing that “abortion is murder”. DESJARLAIS and other polticos don’t believe that, they are like Trump with his “convoy invading America”. It’s purely and simply a tool to keep their constituents voting GOP. And DESJARLAIS isnt even pro-birth, either. He is simply a lying hypocritical sack of GOP shit. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/116 "2019-05-24T01:52:48Z")
Some “pro-life” folks actually actively oppose _all_ prenatal care, because they think that “prenatal care” is just an Evil Liberal codeword for abortion. As for shaming women, ironically that’s one of the reasons why women get abortions. If you have a society where single women are shamed for having sex, and a Good Girl gets pregnant, she’s going to want to get an abortion so nobody has to find out about her shame. So if you really want to decrease abortions, then one of the first steps is to _stop_ shaming women. Oh, and **DrDeth** , you do know that the New Testament repeats the injunction against eating meat with blood in it? I’ve never yet met any Christian who pays any heed at all to that, but it’s right there. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/117 "2019-05-24T02:07:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > … > > Oh, and **DrDeth** , you do know that the New Testament repeats the injunction against eating meat with blood in it? I’ve never yet met any Christian who pays any heed at all to that, but it’s right there. Romans 14:14 King James Version (KJV) 14 _I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean._ Mark 7 18 \*And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?”\* However, the council wrote to the gentiles “_For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well”_ (Acts 15:29) This explains the Churches viewpoint on this: > **[Are Christians Forbidden to Consume Blood?](https://www.ncregister.com/blog/are-christians-forbidden-to-consume-blood)** > > The Old Testament forbids consuming blood, but what is the status of this requirement for Christians? And I dont eat blood myself. The injunction isnt against eating meat, which always contains some blood, but from eating blood itself. Not many Americans do. Blood sausage is pretty rare here. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/118 "2019-05-24T02:40:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > that you abstain from things offered to idols, (Acts 15:29) > . Abstain from incense and fruits? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/119 "2019-05-24T02:48:55Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Ranting about reinforcing the patriarchal order might make a degree of sense if so many anti-abortion rights types weren’t women. It’s not actually that rare for women to be actively involved in encouraging and enforcing patriarchal customs. For example, [here’s a story about a bunch of women in Africa who are pro-female genital mutilation.](https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-07-02/why-do-these-women-kenya-support-female-genital-mutilation) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/120 "2019-05-24T02:53:04Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Abstain from incense and fruits? Blood and life sacrifice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330.md?page=7)