# "Pro-lifers want to control women's bodies" - Okay, but........why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2019, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330 "2019-05-22T02:24:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/141 "2019-05-24T14:33:01Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Refusing to accept the idea that someone could be opposed to abortion for reasons that are understandable is plainly demonizing the opposition. It’s of course much more confortable to assume that someone disagreeing with you does so simply because he’s evil. It prevents you from having to pay attention to his arguments, or to question yours, and frankly to even have to think at all, and of course prevents you from having to even consider the idea that your own position could be not only disputable, but even morally ambiguous or plainly wrong. Someone very much could be opposed to abortion to non-vile reasons. I’m at least queasy about abortion myself. The anti-abortion movement in the US, on the other hand, doesn’t deserve much generosity. We’re finding out that behind a lot of neutral-sounding dog whistles, there’s often a rotten reality. In that way, it’s similar to the anti-immigration or anti-EU movements. Are there reasonable disagreements to be had on those topics? Sure. Is it possible for someone to want to restrict their prominence for non-vile reasons? Sure. Do the anti-immigration or anti-EU movements as they are now and have been for some time deserve much generosity? No. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/142 "2019-05-24T14:39:59Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > It would rather be saving the life of one at the cost of making the life of the other worst. If a fetus is a human, you aren’t making his life better with an abortion. You’re killing him. You could be potentially killing a woman by making her carry a fetus to term. This is something hard to really appreciate unless you’ve been pregnant yourself, but it’s not a trifling matter. Less than a year ago, I was pregnant. Despite being ridiculously healthy, it was the hardest thing my body has ever gone through. The only other experience that rivals it was the pregnancy I had two years before that one. Eight months later and I’m still a different person. Anemic, mineral deficient, lost a tooth, lost hair. I feel lucky just to be continent. There are a ton of women with chronic health conditions; it doesn’t take much of an imagination for me to picture what kind of sledgehammer a pregnancy would represent to them. Even if the vast majority of women don’t lose their lives to pregnancy, long-term impacts on quality of life are very common and very real. A significant number of women who have abortions are older married mothers who already have their hands full with 2 or 3 kids before discovering they are unexpectedly pregnant. These women have to decide whether putting their body through the hell of pregnancy and risking permanent debilitations (and death) is worth it to their existing children, who still very much need a mother that is strong and active. And god forbid if one or more of her kids have special needs, and/or her spouse is sick, unemployed, or absent. The whole family is screwed if she can’t take control of her body… What I wish more people understood is that the pro-choice position is actually the most humane compromise out of two extremes: allowing the State to force women to have abortions and allowing the State to deny women abortions. With pro-choice, you’re allowing women to decide what is best for them and their health in consultation with medical providers. If they make the morally wrong choice, that is between them and their god, just as it is with most sins we don’t legislate against. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/143 "2019-05-24T15:24:35Z")
This is what “pregnant women don’t have a right to bodily autonomy” looks like: It is totally OK for a pregnant woman’s husband to force feed her when he sincerely believes she is trying to starve the fetus. A pharmacist has every right to refuse to fill a certain prescription for a patient he suspects is pregnant or likely to become pregnant. CPS is obligated to conduct an investigation when they have reason to believe a pregnant woman is engaging in practices that could be harmful for a fetus. Like drinking alcohol, smoking, riding bicycles, jogging, or having unprotected sex. You are pregnant and you post a picture of yourself doing a headstand in yoga class and a nosy parker doesn’t think that is safe for the baby? They may just report you to CPS. You confess to your therapist that you often fantasize about terminating your pregnancy so things can go back to normal? Expect the police to show up on your door…especially if you have a miscarriage. If nosy people have quietly noticed you with a slight bump and you return from a trip suddenly missing that bump, then what is to stop your neighbors, coworkers, boss, or family from rushing to the authorities with their suspicions? Will you have to produce evidence that you were never pregnant and that you just got liposuction? Will your face be plastered on the news so the whole city can witness your humilation? An employer can justify firing a pregnant woman out of concerns for the “baby’s” safety, since she works with hazardous substances. And the employer can justify periodically testing all the female employees for pregnancy to avoid hurting other babies. Now, one can sincerely believe these things don’t logically follow from an abortion ban. My response to that disbelief is “Why the hell wouldn’t they?” Because all of them make perfect sense if we accept the premise that a woman’s right to bodily autonomy ceases to exist once she is impregnated. You are pregnant and you don’t want to eat? Well, we will make you eat because what you want doesn’t matter. And fuck your desire to run laps or go bungee jumping or drink beer or continue working with hazardous substances. You don’t mattter anymore. Only that precious baby inside of you matters. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/144 "2019-05-24T15:28:16Z")
I have a friend who is a retired doctor, who recently posted the following on Facebook (sharedwith permission but without his name): > [@](#): > > None of you were around when safe and legal abortion was not available. I was. I saw and treated women losing their uteri and sometimes their lives. I saw this at Philadelphia General AND at Lankenau Hospitals as a result of criminal abortions. Only difference between then and what’s to come is antibiotics are stronger. Most anti-abortion politicians couldn’t care less. They care more about “unborn babies” than live kids from Central America or North Philly. It’s all about votes. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/145 "2019-05-24T16:33:30Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > There are a ton of women with chronic health conditions; it doesn’t take much of an imagination for me to picture what kind of sledgehammer a pregnancy would represent to them. Even if the vast majority of women don’t lose their lives to pregnancy, long-term impacts on quality of life are very common and very real. > > A significant number of women who have abortions are older married mothers who already have their hands full with 2 or 3 kids before discovering they are unexpectedly pregnant. These women have to decide whether putting their body through the hell of pregnancy and risking permanent debilitations (and death) is worth it to their existing children, who still very much need a mother that is strong and active. And god forbid if one or more of her kids have special needs, and/or her spouse is sick, unemployed, or absent. The whole family is screwed if she can’t take control of her body. This is a great launching point for demonstrating that people who seek to ban abortion, knowingly or not, are also demonstrating hostility to women. **A “pro-lifer” hearing the above:** Well, that’s why you use birth control. **Woman** : I do – even though Republicans have made birth control harder to get. Besides, no birth control method is 100% effective. **Pro-lifer** : Well then, if you have all these great reasons to not get pregnant, maybe you just shouldn’t have sex. **Woman** : Gee, thanks. Any other basic life functions you’d like to deny me? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/146 "2019-05-24T16:48:30Z")
Hell, I’d sooner give up bacon and video games! ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/147 "2019-05-24T16:54:14Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > This is a great launching point for demonstrating that people who seek to ban abortion, knowingly or not, are also demonstrating hostility to women. > > **A “pro-lifer” hearing the above:** Well, that’s why you use birth control. > > **Woman** : I do – even though Republicans have made birth control harder to get. Besides, no birth control method is 100% effective. > > **Pro-lifer** : Well then, if you have all these great reasons to not get pregnant, maybe you just shouldn’t have sex. > > **Woman** : Gee, thanks. Any other basic life functions you’d like to deny me? Woman: I am at high risk of losing my life if I get pregnant again. Pro-lifer: Then stop having sex. Woman: If I stop having sex, my husband will leave me and my family will hate me. Pro-lifer: Well, maybe God just doesn’t want you to live or be loved. Ever think of that, you dumbass? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/148 "2019-05-24T16:55:36Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > It would rather be saving the life of one at the cost of making the life of the other worst. If a fetus is a human, you aren’t making his life better with an abortion. You’re killing him. Which is not typically considered as an improvement. There’s a potentially interesting discussion to be had regarding why dying is bad. (And one about why killing is bad, which is different but related discussion.) I’m not sure this thread is the place for those discussions, though. (I’m also not sure it’s _not_ the place for such discussions. Honestly, there’s not much I _am_ sure of.) One thing I can say though is that I’m not at _all_ convinced that the fetus/pre-fetus minds being killed before it has a mind. Heck, I’m not even convinced it minds being killed _after_ it has a mind. I’m pretty sure they don’t like feeling _pain_, but being killed? I dunno that they care about that. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/149 "2019-05-24T17:13:40Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > This is a great launching point for demonstrating that people who seek to ban abortion, knowingly or not, are also demonstrating hostility to women. > > **A “pro-lifer” hearing the above:** Well, that’s why you use birth control. > > **Woman** : I do – even though Republicans have made birth control harder to get. Besides, no birth control method is 100% effective. > > **Pro-lifer** : Well then, if you have all these great reasons to not get pregnant, maybe you just shouldn’t have sex. > > **Woman** : Gee, thanks. Any other basic life functions you’d like to deny me? Pro-lifer: Yeah, try not to get raped, either. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/150 "2019-05-24T17:20:48Z")
I think it is relevant to ask why is murder bad. Murder is bad because people don’t function well when they are constantly under threat of being killed. If I piss someone off at work, I don’t want to worry about that person shooting me in response. Nor do I want to worry about this happening to my loved ones. We need to be able to function well to keep our society running. Trains don’t run on time when everyone is busy loading their guns and looking over their shoulder every five minutes. No fetus is cowering in fear over being aborted and thus not doing a good job of paying taxes, obeying laws, and taking care responsibities. That is why murder is against the law. It has nothing to do with death being inherently tragic or life being inherently precious. It would be against the law even in the absence of the Ten Commandments, because even heathens see the value in not being killed just for failing to use the turn signal. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/151 "2019-05-24T17:31:30Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I think it is relevant to ask why is murder bad. > > Murder is bad because people don’t function well when they are constantly under threat of being killed. If I piss someone off at work, I don’t want to worry about that person shooting me in response. Nor do I want to worry about this happening to my loved ones. We need to be able to function well to keep our society running. Trains don’t run on time when everyone is busy loading their guns and looking over their shoulder every five minutes. > > No fetus is cowering in fear over being aborted and thus not doing a good job of paying taxes, obeying laws, and taking care responsibities. > > That is why murder is against the law. It has nothing to do with death being inherently tragic or life being inherently precious. It would be against the law even in the absence of the Ten Commandments, because even heathens see the value in not being killed just for failing to use the turn signal. > > Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk Another reason murder is bad is because it makes the people who loved the deceased unhappy, which not only is unfortunate for them but can drive them to act in ways that are unfortunate for others. (Like revenge feuds.) Of course this problem is entirely dependent upon there being people around who personally care whether the victim dies. Given all this, I personally I would be okay with treating the thingy as just a possession of the mother (and father?), valued very very very highly. So deliberately harming the thingy against the mother’s will (like say kicking her hard in the stomach with intent to induce abortion) would be viewed similarly to deliberately torching the Mona Lisa. However if you _own_ the Mona Lisa, you can do what you like with it… (Note that this position is built upon my previously stated belief that the thingy itself won’t care if it’s aborted. And if the thingy doesn’t care, and the woman doesn’t care, then why should anybody else care? It’s not their business.) ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/152 "2019-05-24T17:36:37Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > (Note that this position is built upon my previously stated belief that the thingy itself won’t care if it’s aborted. And if the thingy doesn’t care, and the woman doesn’t care, then why should anybody else care? It’s not their business.) God cares! Just ask any pro-lifer for proof. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/153 "2019-05-24T17:41:22Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > God cares! Just ask any pro-lifer for proof. Dude said “suffer the little children to come unto me”. Dude should make up his mind. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/154 "2019-05-24T18:10:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Woman: I am at high risk of losing my life if I get pregnant again. > > Pro-lifer: Then stop having sex. > > Woman: If I stop having sex, my husband will leave me and my family will hate me. Pro-lifer: Well, can you really blame him for leaving you? Not only are you not giving him sex but you’re not popping out babies like you’re supposed to do. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/155 "2019-05-24T18:39:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > This is what “pregnant women don’t have a right to bodily autonomy” looks like: > > It is totally OK for a pregnant woman’s husband to force feed her when he sincerely believes she is trying to starve the fetus. > > A pharmacist has every right to refuse to fill a certain prescription for a patient he suspects is pregnant or likely to become pregnant. It’s even more basic than this. A few years ago, CDC put out guidance that implied women should not drink if they are capable of getting pregnant. As long as there is a chance you could be pregnant and not know it, then no wine for you! Never mind this would apply to the vast majority of cis females between the ages of 12 and 52. Baby lives are on the line, yall. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/156 "2019-05-24T19:30:34Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Those are actually pretty important things to define. How would you define them? How about, none of my fucking business, and none of yours for that matter? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/157 "2019-05-24T19:44:38Z")
**Akaj** , I don’t follow you. A woman who chooses not to become pregnant is denying herself a basic life function, and if that’s her choice, why would she be blaming it on someone else? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/158 "2019-05-24T19:47:11Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > No fetus is cowering in fear over being aborted and thus not doing a good job of paying taxes, obeying laws, and taking care responsibities. Well…because they’re not capable of recognizing. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/159 "2019-05-24T19:49:33Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You should at least have the humility to realise that by choosing to be labelled as “pro-life” you are, yourself, indulging in purposely self-aggrandising and divisive rhetoric. If you can successfully get people to allow you that label then it ensures the other side are implicitly “anti-life”. Which is clearly bullshit. > > I don’t think I could live with the intellectual dishonesty needed to carry that off with a straight face. Back off on the personal comments. (And you have stepped **much** too close to the line of accusing another poster of lying.) [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330/160 "2019-05-24T20:00:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Akaj** , I don’t follow you. A woman who chooses not to become pregnant is denying herself a basic life function, and if that’s her choice, why would she be blaming it on someone else? She may be denying herself the basic life function of pregnancy – for excellent, personal reasons – but the pro-lifer is denying her the basic life function of having sex. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-want-to-control-womens-bodies-okay-but-why/834330.md?page=9)