I don’t want someone killing my family members and friends just because they are unconscious. I guess you can say this is “selfish self-interest”. But that’s as good a reason as one based on"fetal empathy". There are a lot of things I don’t like because they strike me as hateful and wrong that I don’t think the government should ban. Like, I hate internet trolls and I empathize with those who have been harmed by them. But I don’t think it should be against the law to be an internet troll. Because I think that would be government overreach.
Which just goes to show that every society has their own definition of “people”. What makes your definition superior than mine or anyone else’s?
This fetus isn’t smiling. It isn’t learning or dreaming.
Yes, everyone can have their own notion of when a clump of cells becomes human, but that doesn’t mean everyone’s definition is reasonable.
Reasonable people can believe an eight week fetus isn’t a person but an eight month fetus is…which is why late-term abortions are hardly ever performed. But no reasonable person can say that an eight week fetus has the same personhood as its mother.
That’s not the only reason why killing a baby (or any other person) would be wrong, though. I wouldn’t want someone to kill the town bully because I wouldn’t want someone to kill me if I should be perceived as the town bully. And leaving the town bully’s kids without a parent would also not be good for the town. You seem to be picking out the singular arguments I’ve made that rub you the wrong way while ignoring the other points. Why is that?
Do you know why abortion was legalized? Do you think it has anything to do with heinous scenes like this. [NSFW] ould it be that as heinous as abortion was perceived when it was illegal, the horrors of back alley abortions were far more heinous and people realized that they’d rather go with the heinousness that didn’t result in dead wives, daughters, and friends?
But sure, culture is hugely important in framing our morality. If we lived in a society with universal healthcare, guaranteed housing and food and basic income, where unwed mothers weren’t stigmatized, and modern medicine had figured out a way to make pregnancies blissful, low-risk affairs, then I probably would have a much stronger aversion to abortion. But since this is a society where half of the populace believes that poor people deserve to be poor and miserable, then I don’t really give a fuck about aborted fetuses. In fact, I’m kind of jealous of aborted fetuses because at least they don’t have to know how hateful, sanctimonious, and stingy people can be.
Our society is anti-life. We don’t become pro-life by banning abortion. Banning abortion just opens the door for more anti-life laws and attitudes. We don’t need any more of those.
Um, this isn’t the first time you’ve distorted what a poster said to score points, and I wish you’d stop. What I said is that an unwanted baby can be turned over to the state, and this is undeniably true. I have an adopted brother who can attest to the truth of this statement. My larger point, though, is that an unwanted baby can be turned over to someone–state, other parent, family, or stranger on the street–and be protected from harm caused by that unwantedness. An unwanted fetus cannot be protected without denying a woman the right to do what she wants with her own body. That makes protecting a baby a totally different thing than protecting a fetus. Most reasonable people would say that the difference is huge enough to deny a fetus’s personhood and let God (if he exists) sort out who’s going to burn in hell.
What are the consequences for guys, though? Does it not matter to you at all that women have to shoulder all these consequences–including possibly losing her life–while men get to live their completely detached from the whole thing? If a woman can be thrown in jail for killing her fetus, can we throw her boyfriend in jail for being neglectful and lazy and refusing to support her? Or does he get a pass on all of that because of some other Christian belief that isn’t actually codified in the Bible?
All you’ve basically said is, “No one’s gonna make it illegal to drink a glass of wine when you’re pregnant! Don’t be silly!”
But you’re underestimating the human desire to be logical (logic being the basis of our legal system). When black people were freed from slavery, it was inevitable for them to be eventually granted citizenship. Which then opened the door for franchisement and political power (at least the men). I’m sure there were plenty of abolitionists who argued the “No one’s gonna let nigras vote! Don’t be silly!” position, because they couldn’t conceive of it. They would have argued that emancipating someone from slavery is not the same thing as granting them all the rights of citizenship. But they were quite wrong because it turns out that lawyers, judges, and law-makers tend to have very logical, rational minds.
No, a pregnant woman who drinks a glass of wine probably won’t be charged with the same crime as an abortion doctor. But that doesn’t mean she wouldn’t be charged with something, just to teach her a lesson and show her that choices have consequences. Maybe that’s a prospect that doesn’t bother you because there’s no chance you’d ever be harmed by it. But for women, this is a prospect we can’t afford to ignore. It would be stupid for us to ignore something like this, because it is a realistic fear if abortion bans should come to pass.
If you want women to take you and your political side seriously, ya’ll should do a much better job of showing that you understand and sympathize with this fear. Because right now, the only thing I’m hearing from your side is “fuck your feelings and face the consequences of your actions!”