Someone very much could be opposed to abortion to non-vile reasons. I’m at least queasy about abortion myself. The anti-abortion movement in the US, on the other hand, doesn’t deserve much generosity. We’re finding out that behind a lot of neutral-sounding dog whistles, there’s often a rotten reality.
In that way, it’s similar to the anti-immigration or anti-EU movements. Are there reasonable disagreements to be had on those topics? Sure. Is it possible for someone to want to restrict their prominence for non-vile reasons? Sure. Do the anti-immigration or anti-EU movements as they are now and have been for some time deserve much generosity? No.
You could be potentially killing a woman by making her carry a fetus to term.
This is something hard to really appreciate unless you’ve been pregnant yourself, but it’s not a trifling matter. Less than a year ago, I was pregnant. Despite being ridiculously healthy, it was the hardest thing my body has ever gone through. The only other experience that rivals it was the pregnancy I had two years before that one. Eight months later and I’m still a different person. Anemic, mineral deficient, lost a tooth, lost hair. I feel lucky just to be continent.
There are a ton of women with chronic health conditions; it doesn’t take much of an imagination for me to picture what kind of sledgehammer a pregnancy would represent to them. Even if the vast majority of women don’t lose their lives to pregnancy, long-term impacts on quality of life are very common and very real.
A significant number of women who have abortions are older married mothers who already have their hands full with 2 or 3 kids before discovering they are unexpectedly pregnant. These women have to decide whether putting their body through the hell of pregnancy and risking permanent debilitations (and death) is worth it to their existing children, who still very much need a mother that is strong and active. And god forbid if one or more of her kids have special needs, and/or her spouse is sick, unemployed, or absent. The whole family is screwed if she can’t take control of her body…
What I wish more people understood is that the pro-choice position is actually the most humane compromise out of two extremes: allowing the State to force women to have abortions and allowing the State to deny women abortions. With pro-choice, you’re allowing women to decide what is best for them and their health in consultation with medical providers. If they make the morally wrong choice, that is between them and their god, just as it is with most sins we don’t legislate against.
This is what “pregnant women don’t have a right to bodily autonomy” looks like:
It is totally OK for a pregnant woman’s husband to force feed her when he sincerely believes she is trying to starve the fetus.
A pharmacist has every right to refuse to fill a certain prescription for a patient he suspects is pregnant or likely to become pregnant.
CPS is obligated to conduct an investigation when they have reason to believe a pregnant woman is engaging in practices that could be harmful for a fetus. Like drinking alcohol, smoking, riding bicycles, jogging, or having unprotected sex. You are pregnant and you post a picture of yourself doing a headstand in yoga class and a nosy parker doesn’t think that is safe for the baby? They may just report you to CPS.
You confess to your therapist that you often fantasize about terminating your pregnancy so things can go back to normal? Expect the police to show up on your door…especially if you have a miscarriage.
If nosy people have quietly noticed you with a slight bump and you return from a trip suddenly missing that bump, then what is to stop your neighbors, coworkers, boss, or family from rushing to the authorities with their suspicions? Will you have to produce evidence that you were never pregnant and that you just got liposuction? Will your face be plastered on the news so the whole city can witness your humilation?
An employer can justify firing a pregnant woman out of concerns for the “baby’s” safety, since she works with hazardous substances. And the employer can justify periodically testing all the female employees for pregnancy to avoid hurting other babies.
Now, one can sincerely believe these things don’t logically follow from an abortion ban. My response to that disbelief is “Why the hell wouldn’t they?” Because all of them make perfect sense if we accept the premise that a woman’s right to bodily autonomy ceases to exist once she is impregnated. You are pregnant and you don’t want to eat? Well, we will make you eat because what you want doesn’t matter. And fuck your desire to run laps or go bungee jumping or drink beer or continue working with hazardous substances. You don’t mattter anymore. Only that precious baby inside of you matters.
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There’s a potentially interesting discussion to be had regarding why dying is bad. (And one about why killing is bad, which is different but related discussion.) I’m not sure this thread is the place for those discussions, though. (I’m also not sure it’s not the place for such discussions. Honestly, there’s not much I am sure of.)
One thing I can say though is that I’m not at all convinced that the fetus/pre-fetus minds being killed before it has a mind.
Heck, I’m not even convinced it minds being killed after it has a mind. I’m pretty sure they don’t like feeling pain, but being killed? I dunno that they care about that.
Murder is bad because people don’t function well when they are constantly under threat of being killed. If I piss someone off at work, I don’t want to worry about that person shooting me in response. Nor do I want to worry about this happening to my loved ones. We need to be able to function well to keep our society running. Trains don’t run on time when everyone is busy loading their guns and looking over their shoulder every five minutes.
No fetus is cowering in fear over being aborted and thus not doing a good job of paying taxes, obeying laws, and taking care responsibities.
That is why murder is against the law. It has nothing to do with death being inherently tragic or life being inherently precious. It would be against the law even in the absence of the Ten Commandments, because even heathens see the value in not being killed just for failing to use the turn signal.
Another reason murder is bad is because it makes the people who loved the deceased unhappy, which not only is unfortunate for them but can drive them to act in ways that are unfortunate for others. (Like revenge feuds.) Of course this problem is entirely dependent upon there being people around who personally care whether the victim dies.
Given all this, I personally I would be okay with treating the thingy as just a possession of the mother (and father?), valued very very very highly. So deliberately harming the thingy against the mother’s will (like say kicking her hard in the stomach with intent to induce abortion) would be viewed similarly to deliberately torching the Mona Lisa. However if you own the Mona Lisa, you can do what you like with it…
(Note that this position is built upon my previously stated belief that the thingy itself won’t care if it’s aborted. And if the thingy doesn’t care, and the woman doesn’t care, then why should anybody else care? It’s not their business.)
Pro-lifer: Well, can you really blame him for leaving you? Not only are you not giving him sex but you’re not popping out babies like you’re supposed to do.
It’s even more basic than this. A few years ago, CDC put out guidance that implied women should not drink if they are capable of getting pregnant. As long as there is a chance you could be pregnant and not know it, then no wine for you! Never mind this would apply to the vast majority of cis females between the ages of 12 and 52. Baby lives are on the line, yall.
Akaj, I don’t follow you. A woman who chooses not to become pregnant is denying herself a basic life function, and if that’s her choice, why would she be blaming it on someone else?
She may be denying herself the basic life function of pregnancy – for excellent, personal reasons – but the pro-lifer is denying her the basic life function of having sex.