# Pro-lifers: What should the punishment for getting an abortion be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899 "2006-03-11T00:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/181 "2006-03-12T22:17:43Z")
As an interesting case study, Jack Kevorkian was convicted of second degree murder for assisting with the death of Thomas Youk. He was sentenced to 10-25 years in jail, and was denied parole[[cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian#Conviction_and_imprisonment)]. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > On March 26, 1999, Kevorkian was charged with second-degree murder for the delivery of a controlled substance (administering a lethal injection to Thomas Youk). A Michigan jury subsequently found Kevorkian guilty. He is currently in prison in Michigan, serving a 10-to-25-year sentence. On December 22, 2005 Kevorkian was denied parole by a board on the count of 7-2 recommending not to give parole. He now seeks a pardon. He will become eligible for parole in 2007. In an MSNBC interview aired on September 29, 2005, Kevorkian indicated that if he is granted parole, he will not resume directly helping people die, and will restrict himself to campaigning to have the law changed. As anyone noticed that throughout the debate, the doctor has always been refered to as a man? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/182 "2006-03-12T22:46:59Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > That’s hardly unique, or even all that unusual. Drugs and prostitution come to mind. By and large, I’m not interested in throwing that crew in jail either. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/183 "2006-03-12T22:50:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Since when has personally believing a criminal act is not a criminal act been any sort of defense in any court of law anywhere for any reason? Since when has a person’s state of mind absolved them of their crimes? Since someone asked me what _I_ thought the punishment should be, that’s since when. By the way, if you’re looking for a more practical example, I believe that was how abortion prohibitions were handled prior to Roe v. Wade–women were NOT prosecuted, by and large. So, since then, too. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/184 "2006-03-12T22:51:22Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It’s actually amusing (in a sad way) that it would be only the “pro-life” women who should be prosecuted for a crime, according to him. Have no idea what this means. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/185 "2006-03-12T22:53:15Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > By and large, I’m not interested in throwing that crew in jail either. So, would you be fine with women taking RU486 to terminate their pregnancies? It would be “illegal” but there would be no repercussions? You’d say, “Why aren’t you pregnant anymore?” and she’d reply, “Because I took RU486,” and you’d say, “Oh, okay. Carry on”? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/186 "2006-03-12T22:54:43Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Have no idea what this means. Assumedly, pro-lifers believe that it’s murder. The ones who would be guilty of doing something they know is wrong would be the pro-lifers who abort. (And there are definitely pro-lifers who abort.) So, the only women truly guilty of “murder” are the ones who define it as murder. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/187 "2006-03-12T23:03:59Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Assumedly, pro-lifers believe that it’s murder. The ones who would be guilty of doing something they know is wrong would be the pro-lifers who abort. (And there are definitely pro-lifers who abort.) So, the only women truly guilty of “murder” are the ones who define it as murder. Those damn pro-life aborters. I forgot about them. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/188 "2006-03-12T23:11:25Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > If so, then I think you are the exception. Question time - > What exactly is your position, and what is it based on? Where did it come from? What is the “underpinning” you base yourself on? I don’t want to hijack this thread, but I’m on the record on this board countless times. Let me clarify, though: I am religious. I just don’t believe that the purely religious has any place as public policy. So, while my religion might consider divorce and remarriage wrong, I don’t propose that we install this as law. At the same time, while “Thou shalt not steal” may operate quite nicely as a religious principle, it also overlaps public policy because it deals with issues that are not purely religious. And whether you think so or not, there are [those](http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html) who are decidedly unreligious who still hold pro-life beliefs, however common this is. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/189 "2006-03-12T23:21:27Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Those damn pro-life aborters. I forgot about them. Like Bob Barr. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/190 "2006-03-12T23:43:37Z")
(I know this thread is four pages long now and I’m not saying anything here that hasn’t been said a dozen times over; I just thought I should add something other than quibbling over whether or not “most” or “some” abortions take place after the 8th week of pregnancy.) From the [Republican Party Platform](http://www.gop.com/media/2004platform.pdf) (PDF file): > [@](#): > > As a country, we must keep our pledge to the first guarantee of the Declaration of Independence. That is why we say the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and we endorse legislation to make it clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children. Our purpose is to have legislative and judicial protection of that right against those who perform abortions. And from the Fourteenth Amendment: > [@](#): > > No state shall…deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. A set of laws which say that the penalty for killing some persons is death, or imprisonment for life, for all directly responsible for the act; and the penalty for killing some other persons, in a completely premeditated and deliberate way, is imprisonment for 5 years for _some_ but not all of the people directly responsible for this act, is not “the equal protection of the laws”. It would certainly be possible to have an internally consistent pro-life or anti-abortion position which supported something like South Dakota’s law. One could argue that a zygote, blastocyst, embryo, or fetus is not yet fully a person, and thus the killing of such a living thing should not be treated the same as the murder of a human being, and yet that such a living thing is nonetheless not valueless and should be given some degree of legal protection, though not to the same extent that a newborn baby is. Even _Roe v. Wade_ established a sliding scale, and never said that women in the later stages of pregnancy must be allowed to abort except for reasons of medical necessity. The anti-abortion movement _could_ have tried to craft such an argument–I would probably still disagree with the specifics of their proposals\*–but by and large they haven’t; they have claimed an absolutist position that from the moment of conception the “human life” must be given equal ethical and legal weight with that of any other human person. Or rather, they’ve _claimed_ that this is the philosophical underpinning of their position (that is, this has been the avowed position of the vocal and public pro-life movement, though maybe not of every individual who goes by the label “pro-life”), yet the South Dakota law is inconsistent with the “full human personhood from conception” claim, although it is not necessarily inconsistent with the “something important but less than full human personhood between the moment of conception and the moment of birth” stance. So, either this is part of an incrementalist political strategy which will eventually lead to women who have abortions, at any stage of the pregnancy, being prosecuted for premeditated murder; or else the avowed philosophical underpinning of the pro-life movement isn’t really what they’ve said it is. Or possibly they’re just muddled and don’t know what _exactly_ they really think about abortion, human life, and the legal and ethical rights of “unborn children”. Or perhaps they think a bunch of different and somewhat incompatible things, and saying one thing and doing another in this manner is the best political compromise pro-lifers can come up with at the moment. \*I would be opposed to almost any restrictions on abortions in the earliest stages of pregnancy; say, the “first trimester”. I would accept pretty severe restrictions on abortions in the last stages of pregnancy–only if it’s necessary to save the woman’s life; or maybe to “protect her health”, with a strict definition of what that means; or if the unborn baby has no hope of life anyway due to some terrible medical condition like anencephaly. However my support for what I see as “reasonable” restrictions on abortion is compromised by the political reality that the pro-life movement has chosen this absolutist stance which logically _ought_ to lead to women being prosecuted for premeditated murder of a child if they abort in the first week or even the first hour of pregnancy–I’m suspicious of _any_ restriction or new law as likely to be a “slippery slope” or “thin end of the wedge” tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/191 "2006-03-12T23:51:54Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > A set of laws which say that the penalty for killing some persons is death, or imprisonment for life, for all directly responsible for the act; and the penalty for killing some other persons, in a completely premeditated and deliberate way, is imprisonment for 5 years for _some_ but not all of the people directly responsible for this act, is not “the equal protection of the laws”. How did abortion laws withstand this constitutional scrutiny all those years prior to Roe v. Wade? I’m not being snarky. If this is so black-and-white an interpretation, why wasn’t it ever in play pre-Roe? Any of our legal scholars available? Bricker? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/192 "2006-03-13T00:18:35Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > How did abortion laws withstand this constitutional scrutiny all those years prior to Roe v. Wade? I’m not being snarky. If this is so black-and-white an interpretation, why wasn’t it ever in play pre-Roe? Any of our legal scholars available? Bricker? Do you have any evidence to support the notion that pre-_Roe v. Wade_ anti-abortion laws were rooted in the notion that unborn children should have full, equal Fourteenth Amendment rights from the moment of conception? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/193 "2006-03-13T00:38:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Please point me to places that make the case One example, [Feminists for Life](http://www.feministsforlife.org/FAQ/index.htm): > [@](#): > > FFL has never advocated prosecuting women seeking abortion, although we believe that women are capable of following the law. Why doesn’t the law hold accountable those who threaten or coerce a woman into an abortion by withholding financial resources and emotional support? Abandonment is a powerful form of coercion. > > We should criminalize anyone who withholds child support, fires a woman from her job because she is pregnant, refuses to accommodate her pregnancy, expels her from school, or threatens violence—-any act that forces her to choose between sacrificing her child and sacrificing her education, career plans, or safety from violence. > > We believe that we should hold responsible those who profit from women’s pain—-especially the abortion industry. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/194 "2006-03-13T01:26:08Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Those damn pro-life aborters. I forgot about them. Someone with stronger Google-fu can find the cites faster than I can, but women who self identify as “pro-life” have abortions. Self interest has a way of overriding ideals. [This editorial](http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html): > [@](#): > > Although few studies have been made of this phenomenon, a study done in 1981 (1) found that 24% of women who had abortions considered the procedure morally wrong, and 7% of women who’d had abortions disagreed with the statement, “Any woman who wants an abortion should be permitted to obtain it legally.” Refers to this study: “Henshaw, S.K. and G. Martire. 1982. Abortion and the Public Opinion Polls: 1. Morality and Legality. Family Planning Perspectives” I haven’t found a free copy of it online. One link would have let me read it if my library didn’t suck: [http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/browse\_JJ\_R047](http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/browse_JJ_R047) If anyone can read it, please confirm or deny the above stats. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/195 "2006-03-13T01:59:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Maybe you missed this when I posted it earlier. > … > Different states have differing criteria that need to be met that elevates first degree murder to capital murder (i.e. a possible death penalty offense if the state has a death penalty) but near as I can tell the above definition will fit for any state. I strongly disagree, for the reason that **Stratocaster** pointed out earlier. If the woman does not believe that the unborn is a human being (because she’s been falsely told that “it’s just a lump of tissue,” for example), then her act of abortion can hardly be called “premeditated killing.” ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/196 "2006-03-13T02:01:19Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > 1. Abortion is murder. > 2. The doctor who performs the abortion is then a murderer. > 3. The patient who requests and consents to an abortion is party to murder. > > Now let’s change just a few operative words. > > 1. Whacking a rival is murder. > 2. The hit man who whacks him is a murderer. > 3. The boss who ordered the hit is party to murder. > > One would never dream of going after the nit man and not going after his boss, the man who gave the order. There is no way to avoid this. If abortion is defined as murder, thwn hiring someone to perform one is murder for hire. That’s a capital crime **here**. You can say “this should be the punishment,” but a woman seeking and getting an abortion meets all the requirements of capital murder. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/197 "2006-03-13T02:49:44Z")
If your concern is punishment, you will see it this way. If your concern is protecting the lives of the unborn, you probably will not. It’s just a different point of view. The method that is most effective in protecting the lives of the unborn will be one that does not target pregnant women for punishment. ---
**Author:** ![elelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@elelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elelle)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/198 "2006-03-13T03:55:14Z")
I have read this whole thread, and appreciate the discussion. This thought pops into my mind as an appropriate punishment, as to the OP’s parameters: After an abortion, outlawed by the state, both the mother and father should be prosecuted, together, for allowing the abortion. After all, it was their act together that created another human being, so, they should be yoked together as one in any legal procedure. It may require extra expense, and many hours by the state lawyers, to determine the paternity, as that is less obvious than maternity, but to be truly fair in this matter of speaking up for the unborn, that’s the price we have to pay to save precious souls. In that light,paternity testing should be mandated by the state, and funded, in order to properly determine the other half of the equation of a precious human life, and the responsibility thereof. Certainly, if a woman is to be held responsible for fetal rights, the other DNA contributor should be as well. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/199 "2006-03-13T04:01:02Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > The method that is most effective in protecting the lives of the unborn will be one that does not target pregnant women for punishment. In what way? You’ve specifically stated that RU486 use would have zero repercussions for women. Zero. Women will have absolutely nothing to lose, and everything to gain, by finding a supplier. How is it that you can “protect” the unborn without punishing those who kill them, but you can’t “protect” an adult without punishing those who kill them? Why does “protecting” a fetus take such a different shape than “protecting” anyone else? If I hired someone to kill my husband, would you be “protecting” my husband by not pressing charges against me? Would you be “protecting” other husbands by not pressing charges against me? It seems to me you would be winking at murder for hire. Why, in your world, would I not have an abortion? What reason would I have? Do you think you would be able to stop drug trafficking, thereby preventing me from getting the drug I want? You will forgive me if I think that’s a ludicrous goal. You wouldn’t be able to intimidate me, because you will have no legal recourse. All you’ll have is, “No no, don’t do that.” It’s mindboggling. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/200 "2006-03-13T04:31:58Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > How is it that you can “protect” the unborn without punishing those who kill them, but you can’t “protect” an adult without punishing those who kill them? Because virtually everyone supports prosecution of those who kill adults, and those who hire killers to kill adults. And because almost no one supports the idea of prosecuting pregnant women. That’s why. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=11)