# Pro-lifers: What should the punishment for getting an abortion be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899 "2006-03-11T00:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/221 "2006-03-13T20:47:27Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I think you’ll find that most pro-life activists (at least those who are adults & have some idea of the reality of the context) don’t favor _any_ punishment for women who have abortions. They approach this campaign as consequentialists, not retributionists. They just want there to be fewer abortions, so they make it hard for medical professionals to assist in them. Some of this is pragmatic, given other people’s prejudices. But to some degree, it’s that they really are trying to do what they think will make the world a better place. Some are just trying to reconcile their own distaste for criminalizing abortion; while others are actually thinking about the consequences of their actions, & don’t want to “repay evil with evil.” **foolsguinea** , thanks. You stated that very well. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/222 "2006-03-13T21:06:10Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > And there are pro-choicers who believe in making informed choices… until someone starts talking about letting a pregnant woman see an ultrasound video of her womb before having an abortion. Actually what pro-choicers object to is **making** doctors show ultrasound pictures of the fetus to pregnant women seeking an abortion. Any pregnant woman who wants to see the ultrasound already can, assuming she has health insurance. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/223 "2006-03-13T21:09:53Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > What part of “The vast majority of pro-lifers **that I know** …” don’t you understand? > > Now, since you specifically said “I would say MOST of the pro-life movement is being funded and organized by people who want their version of religion to be state law, to one extent or another, and to the exclusion of all other views.” Can you please substantiate that opinion? Is it based on facts, or is it based on mere supposition? I could also come up with something similar, and change it just enough to fit my position. After all I can’t prove or disprove a negative - especially an anecdotal one - can I? “The vast majority of “anti-lifers” I know enjoy eating a plate of live kittens.” So what. Try to disprove it. > **[GOP Swings at Soros Over Baseball Bid](https://forward.com/news/3761/gop-swings-at-soros-over-baseball-bid/)** > > In the latest GOP attack on George Soros, Republicans are trying to dissuade Major League Baseball from selling the Washington Nationals to an ownership group linked to the billionaire financier — with one lawmaker appearing to paint Soros as a... > [@](#): > > In Mailing, Falwell Urging Backers To ‘Vote Christian’ > August 5, 2005 > Now Falwell is rallying voters on a platform of “confirmation of pro-life, strict constructionist” judges, “passage of a constitutional Federal Marriage Amendment, forever defining the family as one man married to one woman,” and the election of a “socially, fiscally and politically conservative” president and Congress — goals that match those of many GOP activists and mirror the platform on which Bush ran in 2004. [http://www.semissourian.com/story/1136591.html](http://www.semissourian.com/story/1136591.html) > [@](#): > > In Michigan, a group of ministry leaders used the anniversary to launch a new anti-abortion organization, Michigan Chooses Life. One goal is to support efforts to get a measure on the 2006 ballot that would change the state constitution to legally define a person as existing at the moment of conception. The American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan has said that even if the measure does succeed, it will be challenged in court. [http://www.cc.org/archives/abortion/index.html](http://www.cc.org/archives/abortion/index.html) > [@](#): > > Christian Coalition > It is tragic that over 40 million children have been killed after the abominable 33-year-old (next week) Roe v. Wade decision, the most infamous Supreme Court decision, by far, in American history. > … > Post-birth Abortions? > The slippery slope keeps gettin’ slipperier > > .Next Up in the Netherlands: Euthanasia for Babies > **[I Would Trade All the Fair Coffee Beans in the Universe](https://forward.com/opinion/4796/i-would-trade-all-the-fair-coffee-beans-in-the-uni/)** > > I am a coffee addict. I love the taste, crave the spreading warmth and am intoxicated by the aroma. Sometimes I think it is the last thing on earth I would willingly surrender. But when I take the first few sips of my coffee in the early morning, I... > [@](#): > > In Defending Court Pick, Backers Cite Miers’s Faith > Many conservatives have attacked the selection of Miers, currently White House counsel, as Supreme Court nominee, saying she lacks experience in constitutional law and charging that her nomination amounted to cronyism. Many conservative critics also worried that she is a stealth moderate, unwilling to overturn abortion rights. > > In an effort to reassure religious conservatives, evangelicals such as James Dobson, head of Focus on the Family, and Justice Nathan Hecht of the Texas Supreme Court — a longtime friend of Miers — are trumpeting Miers’s faith. [http://www.priestsforlife.org/news/00-11-06washtimes.htm](http://www.priestsforlife.org/news/00-11-06washtimes.htm) > [@](#): > > Washington Times - 11/6/00 > Catholic bishops urge pro-life voting > The nation’s Catholic bishops have made abortion the top election issue. > > Their diocesan messages, moreover, are being bolstered by activist priests, nationwide advertisements, Catholic lawyers and wariness toward Vice President Al Gore. > > Still, there is no guarantee that most American Catholics will cast their vote on the pro-life issue. > > “November 7, I hope and pray that you will not forget the most disenfranchised citizens in this land - the unborn,” Washington Cardinal James A. Hickey wrote in last week’s Catholic Standard. These are just a few examples. Given the sheer number of people who pay attention to these various leaders, I’d say it must make for a huge number. I have a novel idea. Let’s enforce the tax laws (already on the books). Any church or religious organization that wants to campaign, lobby, influence votes etc. is absolutely free to do so on one condition - they surrender their tax free standings. After all, these are some pretty serious (tax free) deep pockets organizations and people - except I think for Falwell. I think, if memory serves, he finally went too far and was going to be subject to taxes for his lobbying and interference. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/224 "2006-03-13T21:29:38Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I don’t want to hijack this thread, but I’m on the record on this board countless times. Let me clarify, though: I am religious. I just don’t believe that the purely religious has any place as public policy. So, while my religion might consider divorce and remarriage wrong, I don’t propose that we install this as law. At the same time, while “Thou shalt not steal” may operate quite nicely as a religious principle, it also overlaps public policy because it deals with issues that are not purely religious. > > And whether you think so or not, there are [those](http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html) who are decidedly unreligious who still hold pro-life beliefs, however common this is. [http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html](http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html) > [@](#): > > All too often, I fear that I’m the only nonreligious person who opposes the genocide of abortion used as a birth control substitute. Wow. Genocide. That makes it even MORE serious. We need an international tribunal in order to hold Crimes Against Humanity trials then. The hangings will follow immediately afterwards. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Even so, there are three requirements (explained in further detail on the Membership Form page) for AAPL membership; one must: > > 1. be an avowed atheist, agnostic, or other nontheist > 2. oppose abortion and desire its abolition (with or without exceptions) So am I safe in assuming that there could possibly be no exceptions whatsoever? Not even medically valid exceptions as to ummm maybe safe the mother’s life? Thanks, that makes it a little more clear :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/225 "2006-03-13T22:02:39Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > And there are pro-choicers who believe in making informed choices… until someone starts talking about **letting** a pregnant woman see an ultrasound video of her womb before having an abortion. (bolding mine) Wrong–abortion providers do an ultrasound prior to the proceedure, and I would find it very, very difficult to believe that any provider would not “let” a pregnant woman see the ultrasound. Hell, some women ask to see the tissue, and the providers I know personally have no problem with this. The disagreement comes in when people start attempting to _force_ an ultrasound viewing prior to the proceedure. Although, upon preview, I see that **saoirse** has already pointed this out. > [@](#): > > Sure, people sometimes back down from their moral principles when push comes to shove. That does not render those principles invalid. Of course it doesn’t, and I did not claim that it does. I was merely responding to **stratocaster** ’s comment regarding pro-lifers who have abortions, which sounded as though he or she believed such creatures do not exist. All I’m saying is that they do, and I see them all the time, and do my best to help them reach whatever end they are seeking, be it prenatal care, adoption, or abortion. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/226 "2006-03-13T22:52:55Z")
> [@MixieArmadillo](#): > > (bolding mine) > > Wrong–abortion providers do an ultrasound prior to the proceedure, and I would find it very, very difficult to believe that any provider would not “let” a pregnant woman see the ultrasound. Hell, some women ask to see the tissue, and the providers I know personally have no problem with this. The disagreement comes in when people start attempting to _force_ an ultrasound viewing prior to the proceedure. Although, upon preview, I see that **saoirse** has already pointed this out. > Of course it doesn’t, and I did not claim that it does. I was merely responding to **stratocaster** ’s comment regarding pro-lifers who have abortions, which sounded as though he or she believed such creatures do not exist. All I’m saying is that they do, and I see them all the time, and do my best to help them reach whatever end they are seeking, be it prenatal care, adoption, or abortion. Not to be an insensitive bastard (well OK I am), is this not the height of hypocrisy? A pro-lifer who uses whatever help you give her, but then wants to deny that very same choice for someone else? Am I the only one who has a problem with this? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2006, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/227 "2006-03-13T23:22:22Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Not to be an insensitive bastard (well OK I am), is this not the height of hypocrisy? A pro-lifer who uses whatever help you give her, but then wants to deny that very same choice for someone else? Am I the only one who has a problem with this? Well, sure, but when you get right down to it few of these people actually care about “the unborn”; it’s all about malice towards women and children. After all, why else would the same people who oppose abortion also oppose birth control, women’s rights, child care funding and so on ? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/228 "2006-03-14T00:51:42Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > After all, why else would the same people who oppose abortion also oppose birth control, women’s rights, child care funding and so on ? What percentage of people who oppose abortion also oppose women’s rights? What percentage of people who oppose abortion also oppose birth control? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/229 "2006-03-14T01:26:55Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > What percentage of people who oppose abortion also oppose women’s rights? > What percentage of people who oppose abortion also oppose birth control? I haven’t found a percentage I’m willing to quote yet ( Google comes up with sites that refer to “Christo-fascists” and “Abortion destroyers”; not the most objective of sources ); someone better at googling might be able to. That being said, I’ll point out that it’s both well known and rather obvious; you’re trying to argue that the sky is plaid instead of blue. The Catholic Church and the Republicans both come to mind. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/230 "2006-03-14T01:27:44Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > What percentage of people who oppose abortion also oppose women’s rights? 100%. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/231 "2006-03-14T01:36:13Z")
[19th-century feminists on abortion](http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm). [Feminists for Life](http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm): > [@](#): > > If you believe in the strength of women and the potential of every human life, > If you refuse to choose between women and children, > If you believe no woman should be forced to choose between pursuing her education and career plans and sacrificing her child, > If you reject violence and exploitation, > Join us in challenging the status quo. > Because women deserve better choices. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/232 "2006-03-14T01:48:30Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > [19th-century feminists on abortion](http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm). > > [Feminists for Life](http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm): Why should I care about the archaic opinions of people who died before I was born ? Lincoln was a socialist by modern standards; that doesn’t mean modern Republicans are socialists. BTW, both of those are the same link. Also, I find a group that calls itself “Feminists for Life” about as oxymoronic and fraudulent as Jews for Jesus. They are either shills for the right or simply self destructive fools. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/233 "2006-03-14T02:02:17Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > [19th-century feminists on abortion](http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm). > > [Feminists for Life](http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm): Good quote, but they made the same mistake we are making - we are polarizing and ignoring any middle ground (yeah, I know, the myth of the excluded middle or something). Maybe I better clarify my personal position better. I see abortion as something that should be allowed - I also see it as something extreme, which should be only done for extreme reasons (desparate measures and all). I recognize that a lot of ithis is due to my upbringing. However, I don’t feel I have the right to impose my own “code” on other people in this case. If I did, any woman in the world could tell me I have no idea what it’s like and they’d be right. They could tell me it’s their business and I should butt out, and they’d be right. So, the only ethical choice is to let them make their own decisions. Side note to Der Trihs - I am well aware of the various other things going on - abstinence only sex education (which fosters ignorance), denial of birth control and morning after pills, denial of health insurance or medicaire for family planning tools, curtailment of aid money/programs/welfare for single mothers etc. “They” are creating roadblocks every step of the way. By “they” I mean the politicians and their small but noisy “base”. But, who elects these guys? If they keep getting elected, “the people have spoken” and are enabling this whole mess. It’s easy to judge until it affects you personally I guess. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/234 "2006-03-14T04:07:03Z")
> [@](#): > > **vivalostwages** said: > Or me. Nothing against kids, but if I had wanted one, I would have had one long before now. I don’t mind babysitting them, but I’m always happy to give them back to their parents and go home when the job is done. I don’t go all gooey at the sight of an infant, and…Oh my gosh, there must be something wrong with me! Maybe we’re men. > [@](#): > > **MixieArmadillo** said: > ou might not like to believe it, but when push comes to shove, there are an awful lot of “pro-lifers” who, faced with a contraceptive failure, discover interesting things about themselves and their “absolute” positions. There’s a website for that. The title of it is _The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion_. I ask again, if I am willing to risk my life rather than be pregnant, what potential punishment is going to deter me from obtaining some black market mifepristone or having an illegal surgical abortion? So if I get caught, I go to prison. There’ll still never be a baby. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/235 "2006-03-14T04:11:20Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Why should I care about the archaic opinions of people who died before I was born ? Such as those who wrote the Consitution and the Bill of Rights? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/236 "2006-03-14T04:56:09Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Such as those who wrote the Consitution and the Bill of Rights? And owned slaves and massacred the Native Americans and treated women as subhuman ? ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/237 "2006-03-14T05:01:59Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Not to be an insensitive bastard (well OK I am), is this not the height of hypocrisy? A pro-lifer who uses whatever help you give her, but then wants to deny that very same choice for someone else? Am I the only one who has a problem with this? No, sir, you are not. I have, however, long ago used up my extensive internal supply of wry irony for the subject, and serve them with as much care, compassion, and non-judgemental support as I do all my patients. Deep inside there is a spark of cold fury, but mostly I keep that tamped down by remembering that we do what we do so that those women are free to make that _choice_. ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/238 "2006-03-14T05:04:14Z")
Sorry for the hijack, I never really addressed the OP in the first place. …carry on 😉 ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/239 "2006-03-14T05:16:18Z")
And before anybody misinterprets what I said… what I feel for these women is much closer to resigned sadness… because if they _truly believe_ that abortion is murder, then they must feel that they themselves are murderers. And I can’t even begin to imagine what it must feel like to be in that position. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2006, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/240 "2006-03-14T07:31:37Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > And owned slaves and massacred the Native Americans and treated women as subhuman ? Oh that should get this discussion right back on track. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=13)