# Pro-lifers: What should the punishment for getting an abortion be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899 "2006-03-11T00:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/321 "2006-03-16T03:36:01Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I don’t think it will be now.The SC’s job, as much as some would prefer otherwise, isn’t to find comprimise. It’s to determine what is constitutional. On good days they base their decision on something actually in the Constitution.Right. Because religious people are against spending money and exerting themselves. Everyone knows that. Well shit. Guess who is behind the efforts to restrict birth control. Guess who is fighting the morning after pill. Guess who pushed for the “abstinence only” sex education. They sure exert and spend to get “their message” across and increase their influence, but not to actually HELP anyone. As far as what’s in the Constitution goes, abortion was never specifically mentioned in it at all. Roe v Wade is there because someone wanted to force the issue. It is there because the Supremes did recognize a certain right to privacy and self determination. By the way, I neve thanked you for that wonderful cite that equates abortion to genocide, and which also entertained the idea of a nation where there could be a total ban on abortion with NO exceptions (it was further down the page - item 2 or 3). That pretty much summed it up for me as to your position. No compromise, no give and take, all or nothing. So back to the OP then. If abortion is indeed genocide, wouldn’t the death oenalty be fitting and just, according to YOUR cite? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/322 "2006-03-16T03:38:21Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Because it needn’t only be described as murder. Roe v. Wade itself identified a compelling state interest in restricting abortions:So, the very decision that overturned absolute state restrictions against abortion likewise recognized a compelling state interest to do so at a certain point. Say the SD law effectively overturns Roe v Wade. To say that it is illogical to do so–how can there be a compelling state interest to regulate abortion absent a charge of murder?–well, the same could be asked of Roe v. Wade, couldn’t it? Roe allowed for the possibility of restricting abortion to protect “potential life,” not actual life. Whether or not the SD law was crafted properly, there is already SC precedent for recognizing a state interest without recognizing an existing human life. > > That would work for me. Whether you describe it as murder or not, the South Dakota Law makes it clear that it is. That’s the language of the law. If you knowingly and premeditatedly take the life of a human being who is not a danger to you or another, you commit murder. The law defines a fetus as a human being. In any case, I have not seen how a greater state interest has been served by exempting pregnant women here than in my New Jersey law. As I said, the inteerest there is to make the law morte popular, just like the interest described for this South Dakota measure. So on what basis may we notexclude individuals from prosecution, if making a law more popular is a legitimate reason to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/323 "2006-03-16T03:48:27Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Fine. We’ve firmly established your affection for this particular logical fallacy. Gotcha. Disregarding the word of a known liar(s) is hardly a “logical fallacy”; it’s simply prudence. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/324 "2006-03-16T04:07:47Z")
I have a feeling you’d find a way to dismiss any poll that you didn’t agree with. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/325 "2006-03-16T04:17:25Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > I have a feeling you’d find a way to dismiss any poll that you didn’t agree with. No, I said I dismiss amy poll from a lying pack of weasels. Can’t make it much more clear than that. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/326 "2006-03-16T04:23:44Z")
I wasn’t addressing you. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/327 "2006-03-16T04:30:41Z")
Don’t get all huffy, it was a valid point. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/328 "2006-03-16T05:02:57Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > I have a feeling you’d find a way to dismiss any poll that you didn’t agree with. There is nothing wrong with calling into question the veracity of of some data. Lies, damn lies and statistics as it were. People do it, and rightfully so, all the time around here. Quoting from an obviously biased source makes it tougher for other to take at face value which is why in GD people usually strive to get info from sources like the CDC (as an example). Polling in particular is a dicey affair to rest your hat on (weren’t polling organizations called into serious question after the 2000 election because they were very wide off the mark?). A poll can be very hard to phrase neutrally and the “same” question asked different ways can get very different results. Even questions asked before a given question can slant the answers that come later. I am not saying the Fox poll was faulty. Maybe it is spot on but till I see an analysis of their poll or other polls from non-biased sources I won’t buy it either. If Fox News reported the sun would rise in the east tomorrow I’d get seriously worried the world was about to end (as either the earth will be reversing its spin very soon or Fox actually telling the unvarnished truth…take your pick). ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/329 "2006-03-16T05:35:18Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > …South Dakota though, is an attempt to “go all the way”. No regulation, just a ban…SD does not. “They” want all or nothing" and this is just the first step… Well not really,[ > [@](#): > > FRED DE SAM LAZARO: > {PBS’ The NewsHour Correspondent} > Napoli says most abortions are performed for what he calls “convenience.” He insists that exceptions can be made for rape or incest under the provision that protects the mother’s life. I asked him for a scenario in which an exception may be invoked. > STATE SEN. BILL NAPOLI (R): > {co-sponsor of SD House Bill #1215, Women’s Health and **Human Life Protection** Act} > A real-life description to me would be a rape victim, brutally raped, savaged. The girl was a virgin. She was religious. She planned on saving her virginity until she was married. She was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated. I mean, that girl could be so messed up, physically and psychologically, that carrying that child could very well threaten her life. ]([http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/jan-june06/abortion\_3-03.html](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/law/jan-june06/abortion_3-03.html))[RIGHT]{DarkRed} **Bold** Underlined=CMC[/RIGHT] he’s pro-choice if your the right kinda woman. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/330 "2006-03-16T10:34:43Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Well shit. Guess who is behind the efforts to restrict birth control. Guess who is fighting the morning after pill. Guess who pushed for the “abstinence only” sex education. They sure exert and spend to get “their message” across and increase their influence, but not to actually HELP anyone. This is unsupportable nonsense. Let’s test this, shall we? What evidence do you have that shows religious people are less likely to help others. > [@](#): > > As far as what’s in the Constitution goes, abortion was never specifically mentioned in it at all. Um, yes. I agree. That’s a pertinent fact. > [@](#): > > Roe v Wade is there because someone wanted to force the issue. It is there because the Supremes did recognize a certain right to privacy and self determination. Albeit one that was never actually mentioned in the Constitution. > [@](#): > > By the way, I neve thanked you for that wonderful cite that equates abortion to genocide, and which also entertained the idea of a nation where there could be a total ban on abortion with NO exceptions (it was further down the page - item 2 or 3). That pretty much summed it up for me as to your position. No compromise, no give and take, all or nothing. So back to the OP then. If abortion is indeed genocide, wouldn’t the death oenalty be fitting and just, according to YOUR cite? Have no idea what you’re talking. When did I offer such a cite? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/331 "2006-03-16T10:38:02Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > > [@SteveG1](#): > > > > The better course would be to ensure that people never get into this situation. better sex education, easier access to birth control and medical insurance/care, etc. But oh. That might cost effort and money. That might offend the “holy rollers”. My bad. > > Because religious people are against spending money and exerting themselves. Everyone knows that. Look, **Stratocaster** , I _am_ religious and I like arguing religion. While the odd agnostic or atheist may have crept in, it’s a simple fact that the majority of arguments made against dispensing the morning after pill and for banning all or some forms of birth control and for teaching abstinence only sex education are coming from conservative or fundamentalist Christians. In my opinion, arguing that the Religious Right has no part in this is disingeuous at best. Many Christians don’t believe in sex outside of marriage and that sex should be used only for procreation. The next few days will be busy, but if you like, I can give you links to websites calling for banning birth control pills, IUDs, and Depo-Provera because they may cause abortion. The pharmacists who’ve refused to dispense the morning after pill have done so out of religious reasons. I like what I’ve seen of you, even while I’ve been disagreeing you. Please don’t stoop to arguing that Christians have nothing to do with making birth control less accessable or promoting abstinence-only sex education. Respectfully, CJ ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/332 "2006-03-16T10:44:12Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Whether you describe it as murder or not, the South Dakota Law makes it clear that it is. That’s the language of the law. If you knowingly and premeditatedly take the life of a human being who is not a danger to you or another, you commit murder. The law defines a fetus as a human being. As I said, whether or not the SD law was crafted well, there is precedent for an SC decision recognizing a state interest in restricting abortions that doesn’t depend upon the existence of human life. > [@](#): > > In any case, I have not seen how a greater state interest has been served by exempting pregnant women here than in my New Jersey law. As I said, the inteerest there is to make the law morte popular, just like the interest described for this South Dakota measure. So on what basis may we notexclude individuals from prosecution, if making a law more popular is a legitimate reason to do so. My point still stands. It’s not the SC’s job to make sure every state serves exactly the same interests, except to the extent that the Constitution demands it. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/333 "2006-03-16T10:45:15Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Disregarding the word of a known liar(s) is hardly a “logical fallacy”; it’s simply prudence. It is a well-known fallacy, the Genetic Fallacy. That you’re unaware of this speaks to your debating skills. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/334 "2006-03-16T10:46:51Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > Look, **Stratocaster** , I _am_ religious and I like arguing religion. While the odd agnostic or atheist may have crept in, it’s a simple fact that the majority of arguments made against dispensing the morning after pill and for banning all or some forms of birth control and for teaching abstinence only sex education are coming from conservative or fundamentalist Christians. In my opinion, arguing that the Religious Right has no part in this is disingeuous at best. Yes. Who’s arguing that, by the way? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/335 "2006-03-16T10:48:09Z")
> [@MixieArmadillo](#): > > It’s a hell of a lot more honest than either, too. Do you feel the same about terms like “pro-choice”? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/336 "2006-03-16T11:04:10Z")
You’re reply to **SteveG1** implied that the Religious Right was not involved in the issues I mentioned. Surely you must have considered how it would be taken. I also consider the term “pro-choice” to be as reasonable a description as my views as any shorthand term will be. I consider abortion immoral and that we as a society should do what we can to reduce the number of abortions performed, therefore describing me as “pro-abortion” is inaccurate. I also believe that the decision to have an abortion should be made by the woman carrying the child and the man who fathered it if he is available\*. “Pro-abortion rights” is more accurate than “pro-choice”, but since my position is having an abortion is a choice which should be made by people, not the government, “pro-choice” will do nicely. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/337 "2006-03-16T11:05:35Z")
I apologize for the grammatical error. I’m afraid it’s early here. :o ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/338 "2006-03-16T11:13:46Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > You’re reply to **SteveG1** implied that the Religious Right was not involved in the issues I mentioned. Surely you must have considered how it would be taken. Sorry, that’s not what I said. Don’t put words in my mouth. Among other things, Steve stated that the religious would be offended at the thought of spending money and energy. That’s explicitly what I responded to in my post; those are the words I chose. I fully understand, as does every reasonable person, that the Religious Right is a force in the arenas mentioned. I never said otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/339 "2006-03-16T11:48:19Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > I also consider the term “pro-choice” to be as reasonable a description as my views as any shorthand term will be. I consider abortion immoral and that we as a society should do what we can to reduce the number of abortions performed, therefore describing me as “pro-abortion” is inaccurate. I also believe that the decision to have an abortion should be made by the woman carrying the child and the man who fathered it if he is available\*. “Pro-abortion rights” is more accurate than “pro-choice”, but since my position is having an abortion is a choice which should be made by people, not the government, “pro-choice” will do nicely. Do you extend this courtesy to pro-life people as well? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/340 "2006-03-16T11:59:42Z")
If you’ll review the recent Pit thread on abortion, you’ll see I’ve used both “pro-life” and “anti-abortion”, depending on the argument I’m making and what I perceive the focus of the people I’m discussing. In the case of the people who voted to ban abortions in South Dakota, I’d say that, considering their focus is on banning abortions which are only performed by one doctor one day a week, and that the law explicitly provides an exception for forms of birth control which other pro-life people oppose because they may prevent fertlized eggs from implanting, and because, as far as I have been able to tell, they are doing nothing to reduce South Dakota’s infant mortality rate, I’d say “anti-abortion” is the more accurate term. In other cases, as noted above, “pro-life” is more accurate. Fair enough? CJ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=18)