# Pro-lifers: What should the punishment for getting an abortion be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899 "2006-03-11T00:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/441 "2006-03-19T11:43:53Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I just can’t take this debate seriously. The pro-abortion rights side says that a fetus is worth less than a woman’s life, health, or happiness. The anti-abortion side shrieks that a fetus is a person a human fully 100% real live baby baby baby! Oh, but if you kill it no big deal, really. Go about your business. After all, it isn’t like it’s murder or anything. I have never said that killing the unborn is anything less than killing a fully human person. What we have been discussing is whether or not that fact demands that a woman be charged with murder, which I assert needn’t occur. I argue that legally those two facts can co-exist. You appear to want it to be a different argument. Sorry. > [@](#): > > Enough. I’m done. If an argument with any integrity were going to be made here it would have already. You know, this has been happening a good bit lately, and it’s dishonest and cowardly. “I’m not going to argue any more because your argument lacks integrity / is intellectually dishonest / isn’t worth my time.” The “I’ve done all I can, so now I’ll fling a meaningless zinger that makes me seem above it all when I don’t return to the thread” closer. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/442 "2006-03-19T12:11:40Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > See now you’re saying that a pregnant woman has the mental capacity of a five-year-old. Yep, that’s _exactly_ what I asserted. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Can you not see that you’re conflating differences in degree with differences in kind? Yes, I can conspire to murder someone with premeditation, and wind up getting convicted of 3rd degree manslaughter. But the possibility for being convicted of firstb degree murder still exists. In fact, if it can be proven that I conspired and premeditated the murder, I will face first degree murder charges. If I wind up pleading out, it will be because the evidence is possibly insufficient to convict me, and the DA wants something, and I don’t want to risk a lifetime behind bars. Not any more, not since SD fashioned a legal construct that creates a different class of people! Why is so hard? You assert that the laws says such and such. _Now_ the law in SD says something different as well. The question is whether or not this new legal construct will withstand the scrutiny of a higher court. For you to assert that the legal playing field prior to this law did not allow for this circumstance is absolutely true. Now it does. > [@](#): > > As **holmes** pointed out, the mother in this case is someone who is participating in the crime from beginning to end. If you can prove a crime was committed under this statute, then you can prove the mother was doing it, and she should be prosecuted. Not according to the people of SD as reprsented by their duly elected legislature! Yes, prior to this law, even if we grant the unborn child status as a fully human person, the only legal construct that would seem to accommodate prosectuion would make the mother at least an accomplice. Not any more. The question raised was whether or not this creates equal protection issues. Again, it does not deal with a suspect class, and the law does have a rational basis–another specific legal term, and an incredibly low constitutional threshold to overcome. So, if someone asserts yet again that the premeditated killing of another human being creates a scenario where a particpant must at least be charged with being an accompice, the answer will be the same. Not any more! Not now, not in SD, not for abortions. I know you think SD’s rationale is weak, but you’re not the SD legislature. “I wouldn’t have created a legal scenario inconsistent with prior law regarding the culpability of a person conducting a premeditated act deemed a crime,” may well be your position. You’re entitled to your opinion. But that doesn’t mean SD must also take this position. Will this be upheld by the SC ultimately? I don’t think so, though I’d be happy to be wrong. Why? because they don’t have 5 votes willing to overturn this “settled law,” however speciously it was initially reasoned. That’s all I’m trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/443 "2006-03-19T12:16:14Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > You all keep saying that you don’t want (and don’t think it appropriate) to prosecute pregnant women. We can get into the inherent sexism of this later. My point is this: these women are NOT pregnant! They’ve aborted. Thanks for clearing that up. > [@](#): > > It makes no sense to NOT prosecute the woman. None. IANAL, but it strikes me a bad law and one easily disallowed or struck down whatever they do to nonsensical laws. “This law makes no sense to me” is not the foundation for a constitutional challenge. What constitutional provision would you base your challenge on? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/444 "2006-03-19T12:19:59Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Not according to the people of SD as reprsented by their duly elected legislature! Yes, prior to this law, even if we grant the unborn child status as a fully human person, the only legal construct that would seem to accommodate prosectuion would make the mother at least an accomplice. Not any more. Let me clarify this statement. I should have added the qualifier, “even if we grant that abortion is murder,” which we needn’t. Killing a fully human person need not be classified as murder. Walloon’s point is accurate. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/445 "2006-03-19T16:59:38Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Thanks for clearing that up Just wanted to make sure since YOU and **Walloon** keep insisting that accusing pregnant women of murder is foolhardy and will never gain any political traction. Talk about :rolleyes: I have waded thru 9+ pages of this and there is no consensus or middle ground. There cannot be. Women are to be treated as inculpable (and incapable of making choices)–much like the mentally retarded, apparently. Women are “special” and know not what they do. There’s an argument for ya. IMO, the SD legislature is misguided and misogynist. You are absolutely correct that I have no control over that esteemed body. But I can fight like hell to prevent such a BAD law to come to IL, and I can support pro-choice groups to prevent this blatantly oppressive legislation from ever becoming federal law. I plan to do so, as much as in my power. Thank God I don’t live in MS or SD. I pity the women who do. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/446 "2006-03-19T17:04:58Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > IMO, the SD legislature is misguided and misogynist. You did note that 11 of the 16 women in the South Dakota legislature voted for the bill, including 4 of the 5 Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/447 "2006-03-19T17:07:05Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Let me clarify this statement. I should have added the qualifier, “even if we grant that abortion is murder,” which we needn’t. Killing a fully human person need not be classified as murder. Walloon’s point is accurate. Just saw this, so sorry for the double post. This is so disingenous as to be farcical. So, those “protestors” outside the clinics, calling the women entering, “murderers”–the signs showing bloody (falsified) images of babies with beseeching expressions, the bumper stickers all decrying AB as murder–those were all “street theater”, eh? Aw-you all didn’t mean it! No harm, no foul–just a bit of hyperbole to prove a point or two, that’s it? The hypocrisy of the whole anti-choice movement makes me ill. Oh, they’ll call it murder, until it is politically expedient NOT to do so. There’s honorable and noble motives for you. Treat the women like “victims”–all the while victimizing them with these draconian laws. How, _how_, do these people sleep at noc? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/448 "2006-03-19T17:09:14Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > You did note that 11 of the 16 women in the South Dakota legislature voted for the bill, including 4 of the 5 Democrats? Is there a book where it is written that women can’t be misogynist? Oy. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/449 "2006-03-19T17:10:24Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Just wanted to make sure since YOU and **Walloon** keep insisting that accusing pregnant women of murder is foolhardy and will never gain any political traction. Yes, clearly we were under the impression that women are pregnant _after_ an abortion. Thanks for clearing up our ignorance about how that procedure works. Or could it be that we assume that only pregnant women can actually seek abortions? Hmm, maybe. > [@](#): > > But I can fight like hell to prevent such a BAD law to come to IL, and I can support pro-choice groups to prevent this blatantly oppressive legislation from ever becoming federal law. I plan to do so, as much as in my power. That’s part of the democratic process, just as it is in SD, as much as it might offend your sensibilities when it comes to a different conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/450 "2006-03-19T17:12:11Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Is there a book where it is written that women can’t be misogynist? Oy. Anyone pro-life is misogynistic? That’s really your position? All pro-lifers are motivated by their hatred of women? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/451 "2006-03-19T17:16:25Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > This is so disingenous as to be farcical. So, those “protestors” outside the clinics, calling the women entering, “murderers”–the signs showing bloody (falsified) images of babies with beseeching expressions, the bumper stickers all decrying AB as murder–those were all “street theater”, eh? Aw-you all didn’t mean it! No harm, no foul–just a bit of hyperbole to prove a point or two, that’s it? You see the pro-life movement as a monolithic group, everyone with identical beliefs and conducting identical activities, eh? Must be nice and neat and tidy in your world. > [@](#): > > The hypocrisy of the whole anti-choice movement makes me ill. Oh, they’ll call it murder, until it is politically expedient NOT to do so. There’s honorable and noble motives for you. Treat the women like “victims”–all the while victimizing them with these draconian laws. How, _how_, do these people sleep at noc? Very dramatic. Yes, I will call the act whatever will result in it being made illegal. And I have never, ever described abortion as anything other than taking the life of a fully human person. Sorry this gets your panties in a bunch. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/452 "2006-03-19T17:27:37Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > This is so disingenous as to be farcical. So, those “protestors” outside the clinics, calling the women entering, “murderers”–the signs showing bloody (falsified) images of babies with beseeching expressions, the bumper stickers all decrying AB as murder–those were all “street theater”, eh? Aw-you all didn’t mean it! No harm, no foul–just a bit of hyperbole to prove a point or two, that’s it? Ya, the fringe of the pro-life position is the mainstream. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/453 "2006-03-19T17:30:03Z")
> [@eleanor rigby](#): > > Just wanted to make sure since YOU and Walloon keep insisting that accusing pregnant women of murder is foolhardy and will never gain any political traction. Talk about :rolleyes: > [@Stratocaster](#): > > Yes, clearly we were under the impression that women are pregnant _after_ an abortion. Thanks for clearing up our ignorance about how that procedure works. Wow. I don’t suppose that rather than make feeble attempts to frame the question as ridiculous, you could be bothered to, I dunno, \*answer \* it, at any point in this ten page thread? We all understand that you believe that it’s \*political \* suicide to accuse women who have abortions of murder. Really, we get it. What we’re asking is how do you \*morally \* reconcile the idea that abortion is murder, but a woman who chooses to have an abortion is not a murderer? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/454 "2006-03-19T17:34:27Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > You see the pro-life movement as a monolithic group, everyone with identical beliefs and conducting identical activities, eh? Must be nice and neat and tidy in your world.Very dramatic. Yes, I will call the act whatever will result in it being made illegal. And I have never, ever described abortion as anything other than taking the life of a fully human person. Sorry this gets your panties in a bunch. Yes, you will call it anything–as long as it is politically expedient to do so. As soon as folks here take this AB is murder to its logial conclusion—you back away faster than the speed of light. Oh, it’s not really “murder”–women have been misguided by the big bad doctors etc. It’s a specious argument. And demeaning to women–it places women in a non-adult category. like kids or the mentally retarded. Thanks. Yes, I do consider the entire “pro-life” movement to be misogynist. You are taking control FROM women–you are deciding what is best for them as a group. Think on this for awhile: How’s about we give every man a vasectomy at age 40? It’s as arbitrary and draconian as making AB illegal. But that would deprive males of the CHOICE to procreate, you cry. Ah well–shoe pinches on other foot, doesn’t it. Sorry to leave you all but I have to go do RL stuff now. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/455 "2006-03-19T17:48:05Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Yes, you will call it anything–as long as it is politically expedient to do so. As soon as folks here take this AB is murder to its logial conclusion—you back away faster than the speed of light. I’m not making any excuses for it. I believe abortion kills a person, and I can accept a solution that neither calls it murder nor prosecutes women, so long as it keeps innocent people from being killed. I realize you believe differently, but given this belief there’s nothing at all hypocritical or dishonest. > [@](#): > > Yes, I do consider the entire “pro-life” movement to be misogynist. You are taking control FROM women–you are deciding what is best for them as a group. Then why in the world would you try to debate people whose primary motivion is hatred for women? I wouldn’t, if I were you. > [@](#): > > Think on this for awhile: How’s about we give every man a vasectomy at age 40? It’s as arbitrary and draconian as making AB illegal. But that would deprive males of the CHOICE to procreate, you cry. Ah well–shoe pinches on other foot, doesn’t it. When forced vasectomies for men keep innocent people from dying, we’ll have to discuss it. Until then, it’s apples and bowling balls. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/456 "2006-03-19T17:52:08Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Yes, I do consider the entire “pro-life” movement to be misogynist. You remember those famous [misogynists](http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm): Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Emma Goldman, Alice Paul, Mary Wollstonecraft, and Victoria Woodhull. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/457 "2006-03-19T17:57:42Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Wow. I don’t suppose that rather than make feeble attempts to frame the question as ridiculous, you could be bothered to, I dunno, \*answer \* it, at any point in this ten page thread? Right. I have contributed no substantive answers in this thread. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > We all understand that you believe that it’s \*political \* suicide to accuse women who have abortions of murder. Really, we get it. > > What we’re asking is how do you \*morally \* reconcile the idea that abortion is murder, but a woman who chooses to have an abortion is not a murderer? No, I don’t believe that has been the primary question posed and pursued in this thread, so this is a straw man of sorts. But I’ll try to answer anyway. I’ll say again that I’m not at all convinced that abortion is an act of murder, despite the fact that a human life is taken, because of the women’s beliefs and state of mind. “Murder” is a legal concept. A human life can be wrongfully taken without murder having occurred. But even if I fully believed that abortion was an act of murder, I would support the policital strategy that had the best chance of succeeding in making abortion illegal and actually reducing abortions–which I believe is NOT to prosecute women for murder. It’s more important to me that abortions be minimized than to pursue a position that I’m not comfortable is even supportable. Perhaps it is for some women. Doesn’t matter. That’s the moral reconciliation I believe you’re asking about. I am morally obliged to pursue the political strategy that saves the most innocent lives. It’s pretty simple. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/458 "2006-03-19T18:20:39Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Whack-a-Mole, you keep arguing some variation of, “But the law says such-and-such.” The law says whatever the legislature says it does, so long as it isn’t successfully challenged in a higher court. If the law says that being desperate and pregnant is mitigating circumstance enough to exempt one from prosecution, then a person in that circumstance is exempt. Period. So long as there is not a constitutional provision that prohibits it, that is. > > This law does not take away a right to life. It _protects_ it, albeit in a manner that you think is illogical. But laws can be illogical. They just can’t be unconstitutional. You asked me to show why I think this law may be unconstitutional and I did. Rather than discuss that you just fall back on some variation of, “Well the law says what it says and is fine till the US Supreme Court decides otherwise.” By this take we could imagine a law such as, “Stratocaster is free to kill anyone” as legal and fine till a court finds it unconstitutional. You refuse to see the glaring logical inconsistencies here. Under the new law in SD a woman is exempt from criminal charges for aborting her baby. Can you tell me the difference between a woman who aborts her child at 1 day short of giving birth after a 9 month pregnancy and a woman who kills her child 1 day after it is born? The former is innocent under the SD law…more than innocent, deemed to not have committed a crime. The latter is guilty of murder. Please explain the difference. Also, you really need to give up the notion of “desperate and pregnant” (your words not mine) as something to hang your hat on. Women do indeed come under a great deal of stress when faced with an unwanted pregnancy but people face stressful situations all the time in life. That does not absolve them of wrong doing. These women may be stressed but they are in control of their faculties and more than capable of making decisions for themselves in a rational manner. Very, very few could be said to be driven so out of their minds by becoming pregnant as to merit a stay in a psych ward. The law doesn’t even support you that being out of your skull is a mitigating factor sufficient to wholly remove blame. Andrea Yates was, by all accounts I have read, crazy. She had a history of severe depression, attempted suicide and self mutilation. The woman simply was not right in the head. After killing her 5 children know how that mitigated her crime? She got to stay off of death row…that’s it. Still guilty of capital murder she will spend the rest of her life in prison. So there you have a woman who was clearly crazy and the law absolved her of nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/459 "2006-03-19T18:46:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You asked me to show why I think this law may be unconstitutional and I did. Rather than discuss that you just fall back on some variation of, “Well the law says what it says and is fine till the US Supreme Court decides otherwise.” By this take we could imagine a law such as, “Stratocaster is free to kill anyone” as legal and fine till a court finds it unconstitutional. > > You refuse to see the glaring logical inconsistencies here. No, I don’t think I’m refusing to. I think they don’t exist. SD has decided by statute that it will protect the right of the unborn to live by prosecuting abortion providers, while simultaneously exempting women from prosecution. This is not the equivalent of a law that says it’s OK to kill the unborn. In fact, it’s the opposite. It simply doesn’t prosecute a particuar person involved because in SD’s estimation, presumably, that person’s “guilt” is mitigated by circumstance. The law still seeks to prevent the act that currently results in the death of the unborn. It is not a law that seeks to establish that a given class of people’s right to life is not to be protected. In fact, it is addressing that current void. > [@](#): > > Under the new law in SD a woman is exempt from criminal charges for aborting her baby. Can you tell me the difference between a woman who aborts her child at 1 day short of giving birth after a 9 month pregnancy and a woman who kills her child 1 day after it is born? The former is innocent under the SD law…more than innocent, deemed to not have committed a crime. The latter is guilty of murder. Please explain the difference. I might be the wrong guy to ask this, because while the debate has not focused on this particular circumstance, I’ll tell you right out that I consider late-term abortions much, much closer–if they are not already crossing the line–to being outright acts of murder. So, from my perspective, the SD law might be incoherent in that regard. I see little difference between an abortion a day short of delivery and the killing of a one-day-old infant, if there is any legal difference at all. It’s hard for me to fathom a woman believing an unborn child 9 months into her pregnancy is merely a “blob of tissue,” or not understanding that the child could simply be delivered. > [@](#): > > Also, you really need to give up the notion of “desperate and pregnant” > (your words not mine) as something to hang your hat on. Women do indeed come under a great deal of stress when faced with an unwanted pregnancy but people face stressful situations all the time in life. That does not absolve them of wrong doing. These women may be stressed but they are in control of their faculties and more than capable of making decisions for themselves in a rational manner. Very, very few could be said to be driven so out of their minds by becoming pregnant as to merit a stay in a psych ward. And I don’t hear anyone suggesting otherwise. What I am suggesting is that a woman’s state of mind is a mitigating circumstance, particularly a woman who has been led to believe she is merely extricating a “blob of tissue” from her body. > [@](#): > > The law doesn’t even support you that being out of your skull is a mitigating factor sufficient to wholly remove blame. Andrea Yates was, by all accounts I have read, crazy. She had a history of severe depression, attempted suicide and self mutilation. The woman simply was not right in the head. After killing her 5 children know how that mitigated her crime? She got to stay off of death row…that’s it. Still guilty of capital murder she will spend the rest of her life in prison. So there you have a woman who was clearly crazy and the law absolved her of nothing. I’m not suggesting pregnant women are insane. That being said, you do understand that there have been people found not guilty by reason of insanity, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/460 "2006-03-19T18:53:32Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You asked me to show why I think this law may be unconstitutional and I did. Rather than discuss that you just fall back on some variation of, “Well the law says what it says and is fine till the US Supreme Court decides otherwise.” By this take we could imagine a law such as, “Stratocaster is free to kill anyone” as legal and fine till a court finds it unconstitutional. Let me try this way: I think I’m hearing you say that this law is unconstitutional because it treats this unlawful death in a manner different from other unlawful deaths. Is that a mistatement? Because all I’m saying is that the same could be said about many different categories of wrongful deaths. I’m not arguing with your point. I’m saying it’s not, by itself, enough to make the law unconstitutional. “Stratocaster is free to kill anyone” does seem to be a law that completely disregards the right for others to live. It doesn’t seek to outlaw the act at all. The SD law specifically looks to make all such acts criminal, presumably because it wants them to cease. The “Stratocaster get of jail free” law does not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=24)