# Pro-lifers: What should the punishment for getting an abortion be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899 "2006-03-11T00:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/61 "2006-03-11T21:24:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The same way as we allow someone to die by withholding artificial ventilation as opposed to shooting them. Perhaps there is no difference legally, but it seems like Dr’s prefer the 1st while very rarely doing the 2nd, though the 2nd might just be less painful. I suspect that there is a moral difference. It’s not a moral issue, since a fetus is mindless to begin with. It feels no pain, so there’s no difference. As far as the difference between withholding support and shooting a patient, I think it’s just a matter of moral cowardice. It would be _better_ to shoot them, and get it over quickly. At the very least, a lethal overdose of painkillers would be better. Dead is dead, after all. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Well I think the pro-life position is why such a person chose to put herself in a situation that could lead to a pregnancy. Since it was her choice she must have accepted that she may have a child, and accepted that she might have to go off her medication for this. Ah, once again the “Suffer, slut !” “pro life” rhetoric rears it’s head. I hate to break it to you, but people have sex all the time with _no_ intention of having offspring. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/62 "2006-03-11T22:13:37Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > Let’s just say that some of the more extreme members of such groups have shot and shot at physicians that performed abortions. No such thing happened before Roe vs Wade, to my knowledge. That’s not what you were claiming, though. You said that pro-life **groups** _prosecute_ abortion doctors. Now you’re talking about \*individuals \* (not groups!) who decide to engage in vigilante justice _instead of prosecuting_. Please make up your mind. > [@](#): > > Burden of proof is on your side as far as I am concerned. If it happened a lot, you should be able to find the counterevidence easily. No way. You’re the one who claims that abortion providers were almost never prosecuted prior to Roe v. Wade. The burden of proof rests on your shoulders. > [@](#): > > I didn’t say that. I merely said that the refution of the 60s claim doesn’t provide evidence either way. It provides EVIDENCE, but not PROOF. The evidence (including testimonies from prominent pro-choicers) suggests that the delegalization of abortion will NOT result in massive back-alley abortions, much less unsafe ones. This is admittedly not proof, but it is evidence, whereas the pro-choice claim is nothing but conjecture. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/63 "2006-03-11T22:17:58Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Kinda hard to have the “brain sucked out” when it probably hasn’t even formed yet. > > :rolleyes: Are you honestly suggesting that the fetus has no brain? Whatever gave you that idea? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/64 "2006-03-11T22:18:03Z")
**JThunder** -perhaps **Arwin** meant to say _persecute_ rather than _prosecute_? ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/65 "2006-03-11T22:24:07Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Are you honestly suggesting that the fetus has no brain? Whatever gave you that idea? I imagine that she’s talking about an embryo, which is what gets aborted 85% of the time in America, rather than a fetus. But oh how the pro-lifers like to inaccurately call it a fetus. They also like to call it a baby, sometimes a child, but very rarely do they call it a person, because people aren’t cute but babies are. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/66 "2006-03-11T22:27:10Z")
> [@bluethree](#): > > I imagine that she’s talking about an embryo, which is what gets aborted 85% of the time in America, rather than a fetus. But oh how the pro-lifers like to inaccurately call it a fetus. They also like to call it a baby, sometimes a child, but very rarely do they call it a person, because people aren’t cute but babies are. If that’s the case, then I appologize for my ignorance. I AM talking about early term abortions, but I can never remember whether or not it’s a fetus, a zygote, or an embryo. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/67 "2006-03-11T23:32:17Z")
**SteveG1** I really don’t like the basic idea of killing person C because of the illegal act that B did to person A. Even when A = mother, B = rapist and C= fetus. But this situation has led me to be very reluctantly pro-right to abort, but very very anti RvW as it was IMHO a extra-Constitutional decision and I also consider myself ‘pro-choice’ - but in no way in the conventional sense. I am very for the woman having to allow the situation where a fetus may attach and develop - I fully support this is her choice to make - but also see that this choice is usually make during consensual sex. The issue of rape comes up. The way I see it is that the woman who was raped NEVER chose to become pregnant (by rape), being consistant to my _pro-choice_ stance that fetus has no claim for the use of that womb. She should have the right to have the fetus removed from her uterian wall, but doesn’t have the right to directly kill the fetus. The fetus should be treated with respect due anyone who is going to die due to medical reasons (as opposed to executed by civil authority). Now just expanding a bit, why I consider myself pro right to abort, is because I feel that if rape is the only exception, there will be many false cases of rape filed, which would destroy lives, creating 2nd class citizens out of of innocent ‘sex offenders’. This would ruin 2 lives, the fetus, and the father. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/68 "2006-03-11T23:43:22Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > 1. Rape > 2. Forced incest > 3. Happily married, but finding out that a pregnancy will kill her > 4. Family history of horrible genetic diseases and or birth defects. > 5. Add in the new wrinkle - some dumb ass pharmacist decided to refuse selling birth control or morning after pills due to some religious “thing”. > 6. Lack of knowledge or information about the entire subject, thanks to the government’s insistence on abstinence only “sex education” > > Or don’t those count? Yeah, these occur so frequently, it’s refreshing to hear someone point out that these form the fulcrum upon which all abortion law should pivot. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/69 "2006-03-11T23:45:32Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > It’s not a moral issue, since a fetus is mindless to begin with. It feels no pain, so there’s no difference. You bailed on the last thread when I gave you an analogy you couldn’t reconcile. Are you still advancing this nonsense, pretending you hold a coherent moral position? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/70 "2006-03-11T23:46:07Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s not a moral issue, since a fetus is mindless to begin with. It feels no pain, so there’s no difference. This sounds like it’s comming from the position that animals have equal rights as humans, which is one form of morality. But there is at least one other, where humans are above animals, and innocent human life is even more precious. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/71 "2006-03-11T23:54:33Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Curiously the South Dakota law only provides for penalties for abortion providers and none for the women themselves. But this doesn’t make any sense. It’s as though a murder law imposed a penalty on the hitman who pulled the trigger but completely ignored the mobster who paid him to do it. > > Personally, I’m pro-choice. I don’t believe that human life begins at conception and I think that abortion early in pregnancy should be legal. But I’m curious to hear from the pro-life camp what their position is on the matter. It seems like logical consistency would require that anti-abortion laws should carry penalties similar to the penalties that apply to murder. If not, why not? Abortion is a singular act, involving desperate woman who most often don’t believe they are committing an evil act. I’m OK with prosecuting only providers, especially since this is the type of prosecution the American public is most likely to have a stomach for. And, BTW, human life begins at conception. It’s inarguable. ---
**Author:** ![aurelian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@aurelian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurelian)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/72 "2006-03-12T00:23:32Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Abortion is a singular act, involving desperate woman who most often don’t believe they are committing an evil act. So, excuse the brevity of my response, but, uh…cite? Has there been a study done on how women who have had abortions rate them ethically? (And what do you mean by “singular”?) > [@](#): > > And, BTW, human life begins at conception. It’s inarguable. Cite? (The rest of us deserve to be informed of such an obvious truth, yeah?) ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/73 "2006-03-12T00:31:21Z")
> [@aurelian](#): > > So, excuse the brevity of my response, but, uh…cite? Has there been a study done on how women who have had abortions rate them ethically? (And what do you mean by “singular”?) I’m willing to presume an ethical intention on the part of most women seeking abortions. If you think this is unlikely, fine, I have nothing to refute your position that women may well have evil intentions when seeking abortions. By “singular” I mean: > [@](#): > > sin·gu·lar ( P ) Pronunciation Key (snggy-lr) > adj. > > 1. Being only one; individual. > 2. Being the only one of a kind; unique. > 3. Being beyond what is ordinary or usual; remarkable. > 4. Deviating from the usual or expected; odd. See Synonyms at strange. > [@](#): > > Cite? (The rest of us deserve to be informed of such an obvious truth, yeah?) Do you refute that the fetus is alive? Or that it is human? Let me know so I can provide the proper cite. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/74 "2006-03-12T00:35:36Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Yeah, these occur so frequently, it’s refreshing to hear someone point out that these form the fulcrum upon which all abortion law should pivot. :rolleyes: Ahhh but they DO happen. It’s a fact. They may not be a rampant epidemic, but there they are. Since they happen (fact), they must be considered. I tend to give them more consideration than anything I personally see from the opposing side. The changes we are seeing right now, are the result of people pushing their own supposedly religious agendas, and to hell with any consequences, and to hell with anyone whose own religion says different (if anything at all). It makes no difference to me personally if someone else gets an abortion or doesn’t get one. I can let things be. However there are those who refuse to do the same. As for being a fulcrum, it is more valid than the frothings of The Far Far Extreme Right Theocratics (too much hyperbole?), which is based on their interpretation of the bible, as THEY choose to twist it (while ignoring any other interpretation). Their way violates the right to privacy, the right to get the medical care of their choosing, and the right to control their own bodies and lives. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/75 "2006-03-12T00:40:14Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Ahhh but they DO happen. It’s a fact. They may not be a rampant epidemic, but there they are. Since they happen (fact), they must be considered. I tend to give them more consideration than anything I personally see from the opposing side. The changes we are seeing right now, are the result of people pushing their own supposedly religious agendas, and to hell with any consequences, and to hell with anyone whose own religion says different (if anything at all). Who supposes the agendas are religious exclusively? I assert that _my_ pro-life position is decidedly secular, albeit a secular axiom you may well disagree with. > [@](#): > > It makes no difference to me personally if someone else gets an abortion or doesn’t get one. I can let things be. However there are those who refuse to do the same. As for being a fulcrum, it is more valid than the frothings of The Far Far Extreme Right Theocratics (too much hyperbole?), which is based on their interpretation of the bible, as THEY choose to twist it (while ignoring any other interpretation). Their way violates the right to privacy, the right to get the medical care of their choosing, and the right to control their own bodies and lives. If you’d prefer to argue with a frothing, far-right religious zealot, then I apologize. I can’t help you. I firmly believe that purely religious positions have no place as public policy. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/76 "2006-03-12T00:46:00Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Who supposes the agendas are religious exclusively? I assert that _my_ pro-life position is decidedly secular, albeit a secular axiom you may well disagree with.If you’d prefer to argue with a frothing, far-right religious zealot, then I apologize. I can’t help you. I firmly believe that purely religious positions have no place as public policy. No, maybe I should apologize. On one thing we DO agree - purely religious postiions don’t belong in public policy, but I honestly belive that is what is happening. At its most basic, I don’t approve of government sticking its nose in issues where there is no overriding and compelling need. That includes the private decisions of its citizens. ---
**Author:** ![aurelian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@aurelian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurelian)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/77 "2006-03-12T00:47:53Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I’m willing to presume an ethical intention on the part of most women seeking abortions. If you think this is unlikely, fine, I have nothing to refute your position that women may well have evil intentions when seeking abortions. My position? \ I would sooner have a root canal sans anasthesia than have an abortion (even a medically-necessary one), but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t. People make decisions all the time between two “evil” options. Hmm…not to be snarky, but the dictionary definition of “singular” didn’t help - what I was getting at, is do you feel the the moral ‘weight’ of the decision to abort (and its ethical repercussions) should be wholly on the woman, or also on the man that impregnated her? > [@](#): > > Do you refute that the fetus is alive? Or that it is human? Let me know so I can provide the proper cite. Alive, or at least “alive” in a sense that is different from the way my finger is ‘alive’. Anyway, all this is a hijack, right? **Strat** , how do you punish the woman for having an abortion? Prison? Fines? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/78 "2006-03-12T00:48:03Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > And, BTW, human life begins at conception. It’s inarguable. Says you. It may be a human life, but it is not on par with a human being yet. I do not believe it is a full life. It’s mere potential. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/79 "2006-03-12T00:52:13Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > No, maybe I should apologize. It always takes me by surprise when people react reasonably around here in response to a counter. It’s a character flaw of mine, I guess. So, my response is, um, well, _oh yeah?_ > [@](#): > > On one thing we DO agree - purely religious postiions don’t belong in public policy, but I honestly belive that is what is happening. At its most basic, I don’t approve of government sticking its nose in issues where there is no overriding and compelling need. That includes the private decisions of its citizens. Well, I’m pretty sure you and I would disagree about what is “private.” So, there you go. “Private,” to me, means something that affects only the people agreeing to the activity in question. “Private” does not equal “legal” to me, either. A brothel can keep its shades drawn, but that doesn’t mean it’s OK in my neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/80 "2006-03-12T00:57:12Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > You bailed on the last thread when I gave you an analogy you couldn’t reconcile. Are you still advancing this nonsense, pretending you hold a coherent moral position? What are you babbling about ? > [@kanicbird](#): > > This sounds like it’s comming from the position that animals have equal rights as humans, which is one form of morality. But there is at least one other, where humans are above animals, and innocent human life is even more precious. :dubious: Where did that come from ? No, I think that animals have rights depending on how mentally complex they are. An insect has none, while a dog has more than a fetus does. > [@Stratocaster](#): > > And, BTW, human life begins at conception. It’s inarguable. Only if you think that human = meat with human DNA. It’s “human” the way a tumor is “human”. IMHO, it’s a fundamentally evil way of looking at the world. It’s a view held by people who have zero respect for the life, freedom or happiness of people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=5)