# Pro-lifers: What should the punishment for getting an abortion be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899 "2006-03-11T00:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/81 "2006-03-12T01:02:36Z")
> [@aurelian](#): > > My position? \ I would sooner have a root canal sans anasthesia than have an abortion (even a medically-necessary one), but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t. People make decisions all the time between two “evil” options. Sorry, but you asked for a cite for my belief that most women who seek abortions do not think abortion is an evil act. I responded by saying that I have no such cite, but if you prefer to think otherwise, feel free. If you don’t hold this position, why do you require a cite? > [@](#): > > Hmm…not to be snarky, but the dictionary definition of “singular” didn’t help - what I was getting at, is do you feel the the moral ‘weight’ of the decision to abort (and its ethical repercussions) should be wholly on the woman, or also on the man that impregnated her? I was supposed to know this was your question when you asked for clarification regarding my use of the word singular? Um, OK. In answer to your question, I believe whoever has the power to make an abortion occur is morally obliged to prevent it. Most often, that doesn’t involve the father. > [@](#): > > Alive, or at least “alive” in a sense that is different from the way my finger is ‘alive’. I dunno. In what sense do you think your finger is alive? Perhaps I can save us a lot of trouble. Are you really asserting some notion of “personhood”? > [@](#): > > **Strat** , how do you punish the woman for having an abortion? Prison? Fines? Did you miss the part where I said I don’t want to punish them? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/82 "2006-03-12T01:05:47Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > What are you babbling about ? Oh! That’s cute. > [@](#): > > Only if you think that human = meat with human DNA. It’s “human” the way a tumor is “human”. Or a temprarily brain-dead person? Eh? Eh? Come on, you can do it. > [@](#): > > IMHO, it’s a fundamentally evil way of looking at the world. It’s a view held by people who have zero respect for the life, freedom or happiness of people. Well, that’s good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/83 "2006-03-12T01:07:06Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Or a temprarily brain-dead person? There is no such thing. Once your brain is dead, it’s _dead_. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/84 "2006-03-12T01:09:23Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Are you really asserting some notion of “personhood”? :dubious: Are you actually claiming that personhood isn’t important ? And if it’s not, then how _do_ you claim that, say you have a right to life but a diseased kidney or a tumor doesn’t ? > [@Stratocaster](#): > > Oh! That’s cute. Not an answer. > [@Stratocaster](#): > > Or a temprarily brain-dead person? Eh? Eh? Come on, you can do it. What **Guinastasia** said. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/85 "2006-03-12T01:10:40Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > There is no such thing. Once your brain is dead, it’s _dead_. > > :rolleyes: [Really?](http://uillinoismedcenter.org/content.cfm?contentalias=brain_dead) ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/86 "2006-03-12T01:13:30Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > What **Guinastasia** said. And cut your bullshit. You bailed on the thread where I brought this up. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/87 "2006-03-12T01:21:17Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Abortion is a singular act, involving desperate woman who most often don’t believe they are committing an evil act. I’m OK with prosecuting only providers, **especially since this is the type of prosecution the American public is most likely to have a stomach for.** (Bolding mine – EC) So your position isn’t moral, it’s just opportunistic, and you think this particular form of harm is one that will be politically popular. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/88 "2006-03-12T01:22:19Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > And cut your bullshit. You bailed on the thread where I brought this up. No, I pointed out that someone else answered the question first. ---
**Author:** ![aurelian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@aurelian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurelian)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/89 "2006-03-12T01:45:23Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Sorry, but you asked for a cite for my belief that most women who seek abortions do not think abortion is an evil act. I responded by saying that I have no such cite, but if you prefer to think otherwise, feel free. If you don’t hold this position, why do you require a cite? I dunno, curiosity? (No need to be snarky.) I was supposed to know this was your question when you asked for clarification regarding my use of the word singular? Um, OK. [/quote] No. I assumed you would give me enough an answer (eg, somewhat more nuanced than the dictionary) so that I would be able to understand what you meant by “singular”. My bad. > [@](#): > > In answer to your question, I believe whoever has the power to make an abortion occur is morally obliged to prevent it. Most often, that doesn’t involve the father.I dunno. > \ Did you miss the part where I said I don’t want to punish them? Indeed, I did. But the first point you make seems to contradict the second (or not, so I’m asking now). What does being “morally obliged to prevent” something mean? What limits, if any, are to be placed on the prevention, and couldn’t that prevention, if taken to its logical ends, be a form of punishment (for wanting the abortion, even, not having one)? ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/90 "2006-03-12T01:48:09Z")
If abortion became illegal, I foresee the possible development of a chain of clinics devoted to extracting, freezing, and storage of embryoes. The storage would just be until the mother reaches a point when reimplanting and bearing the child fits into her her life, of course. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/91 "2006-03-12T02:01:52Z")
> [@aurelian](#): > > Cite? (The rest of us deserve to be informed of such an obvious truth, yeah?) Let me ask you when did your biological life begin? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Where did that come from ? No, I think that animals have rights depending on how mentally complex they are. An insect has none, while a dog has more than a fetus does. It seemed you based a moral ‘score’ on the ability to feel pain. Also a 2 yr old dog is more mentally complex then a just born baby, does that place the dog higher? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/92 "2006-03-12T02:05:36Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > If abortion became illegal, I foresee the possible development of a chain of clinics devoted to extracting, freezing, and storage of embryoes. > > The storage would just be until the mother reaches a point when reimplanting and bearing the child fits into her her life, of course. Actually I like this one, but it has to be taken to it’s extreme. The mother has to post a bond to ensure the freezing and implantation costs, and also a limit on the number of frozen children based on her ability to carry them to term. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/93 "2006-03-12T02:06:24Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > :dubious: Are you actually claiming that personhood isn’t important ? And if it’s not, then how _do_ you claim that, say you have a right to life but a diseased kidney or a tumor doesn’t ? I’m assuming you mean to infer that a tumor has a right to live? Oh wait. It’s **Der Trihs**. Never mind. Typical analogy. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/94 "2006-03-12T02:17:25Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > And, BTW, human life begins at conception. It’s inarguable. Inarguable? Except for the fact that this is not a medically valid position accepted by _any_ of the physicians’ groups in the US. Many, many, many conceptions do not go on to become pregnancies. If this were true, an IUD would cause an abortion more ovulatory cycles than not. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/95 "2006-03-12T02:19:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Many, many, many conceptions do not go on to become pregnancies. If this were true, an IUD would cause an abortion more ovulatory cycles than not. Many many babies never make it to adulthood either, does that mean that they were never humans? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/96 "2006-03-12T02:26:04Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > So your position isn’t moral, it’s just opportunistic, and you think this particular form of harm is one that will be politically popular. No, my position is absolutely moral. It is simultaneously one that is more politically expedient. Nice, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/97 "2006-03-12T02:33:05Z")
> [@aurelian](#): > > I dunno, curiosity? (No need to be snarky.) Huh? Who was snarky? > [@](#): > > I was supposed to know this was your question when you asked for clarification regarding my use of the word singular? Um, OK. > > > [@](#): > > > > No. I assumed you would give me enough an answer (eg, somewhat more nuanced than the dictionary) so that I would be able to understand what you meant by “singular”. My bad. Sorry for the brazen effrontery implied by making the word “singluar” mean “singular.” > [@](#): > > Indeed, I did. But the first point you make seems to contradict the second (or not, so I’m asking now). What does being “morally obliged to prevent” something mean? It means being “morally obliged to prevent.” You need to calrify your question for me. > [@](#): > > What limits, if any, are to be placed on the prevention, and couldn’t that prevention, if taken to its logical ends, be a form of punishment (for wanting the abortion, even, not having one)? Punishment for what? Punishment for not wanting to fulfill one’s moral obligation? That’s not my definition of “punishment.” ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/98 "2006-03-12T02:35:38Z")
> [@MixieArmadillo](#): > > Inarguable? Except for the fact that this is not a medically valid position accepted by _any_ of the physicians’ groups in the US. This is demonstrably false. > [@](#): > > Many, many, many conceptions do not go on to become pregnancies. If this were true, an IUD would cause an abortion more ovulatory cycles than not. “Pregnancy” does not equal “alive.” Something can be alive and not result in a pregnancy (albeit a short period the entity is alive). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/99 "2006-03-12T02:36:56Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > If that’s the case, then I appologize for my ignorance. I AM talking about early term abortions, but I can never remember whether or not it’s a fetus, a zygote, or an embryo. > > Thank you. The dividing line is usually set at 9 weeks. After that point, it’s a fetus. That is somewhat arbitrary, but after 9 weeks the “major structures” are all present, if only in rudimetary form, and that’s the convention. As a point or reference, the heart (or what will eventually becomes the heart) starts beating at about 6 weeks. When does the brain appear? Depends on how you define “brain”. There’s a “brain bulge” after just a few weeks, but you’d be really stretching things to call that a brain. BY 9 weeks, there’s probably what most people would call a brain present, at least visually, although I wouldn’t call it a functioning brain. By ~22 weeks, the brain is growing like gangbusters, so I think you’d have to saying a fetus at that stage has a brain. So, somewhere between 9 and 22 weeks is proabably the best answer. You hear all kinds of claims about brain waves being detected before 22 weeks, but those claims seem to come only from pro-life groups. About 80% of all abortions in the US occur in the first 10 weeks. Less than 5% occur after 16 weeks. So, I don’t think the argument about killing something with a brain is relevant to the abortion debate, except at the margins. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/100 "2006-03-12T02:37:16Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > No, I pointed out that someone else answered the question first. How cowardly! This is most amusing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=6)