# Pro-lifers: What should the punishment for getting an abortion be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899 "2006-03-11T00:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![aurelian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@aurelian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurelian)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/101 "2006-03-12T03:21:19Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Huh? Who was snarky? Oh, my cat. I was referring to her in the post I wrote directed to you. Obviously. > [@](#): > > Sorry for the brazen effrontery implied by making the word “singluar” mean “singular.” Oh yay! **Stratocaster** ’s being sarcastic! That should really help move the discussion along. Well, either I’m a dimwit or it is possible to see “singular” as meaning different things within the context of criminalizing abortion: you said “abortion is a singular act”. So, the man who impregnated her would not at all be liable, since his “act” is potentially completed. And if there are extenuating circumstances of any sort, those just get melted down into the very moment of the abortion? That would seem strange, since we normally do take history into account when judging. > [@](#): > > It means being “morally obliged to prevent.” You need to calrify your question for me. I’m getting that sense. To what lengths am I allowed to go in order to prevent an abortion from occurring? Must I stay within the bounds of legal behavior? > [@](#): > > Punishment for what? Punishment for not wanting to fulfill one’s moral obligation? That’s not my definition of “punishment.” Unfortunately, you still haven’t provided me with a cite as to why that is _my_ moral obligation and not just yours, superimposed. If you are “morally obligated” to prevent me from getting an abortion, when will your moral imperative to action stop and my moral imperative as an adult female begin? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/102 "2006-03-12T04:05:46Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Well, this might explain why the “pro-life” folk are seeming indifferent to the many, many, many times it has been pointed out that if abortion is banned, women will die in back alley abortions Before _Roe v. Wade_, even in the 1950s, the vast majority of illegal abortions in the U.S. were performed by licensed physicians. The number of abortion-related deaths in the U.S. was already declining rapidly in the 1960s before _Roe v. Wade_ — obviously, not through legal elective abortions (only three states had them), but through improvements in obstetrics. But if “back alley abortions” rallies the troops, don’t let the facts stop ya. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/103 "2006-03-12T04:20:20Z")
I want to point out that this discussion has ranged very far from my OP. Can we please steer it back there? So far I’m hearing from the pro-life people who have posted that they don’t believe that women should be punished for getting abortions. My question to them is “Why not?” If human life begins at conception, then abortion is murder – full stop. So why don’t you believe that it should be punished like murder? A woman who drowns her newborn will likely be jailed for life. Why is getting an abortion different? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/104 "2006-03-12T04:27:26Z")
Putting aside the ethical issues (which are not as black and white as you are stating them), there are the practical political issues. State laws outlawing abortion have _always_ been directed at the abortion providers, not women who have abortions. Laws that would prosecute women for obtaining abortions are just not politically palatable. To support such a draconian law would be a recipe for failure. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/105 "2006-03-12T04:28:28Z")
And here’s an [article](http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-buell11mar11,0,12989.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions) in today’s LA Times that addresses exactly the point I raised in my OP. If abortion is murder, then why don’t the proposed punishments fit the crime? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/106 "2006-03-12T04:35:53Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > What is the current sentence for abortion outside the allowed number of weeks in the US? Abortion laws are made by the individual states. [State abortion laws](http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_OAL.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/107 "2006-03-12T04:42:09Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > If abortion is murder, then why don’t the proposed punishments fit the crime? There are many different degrees of “murder.” You’ve got first-, second- and third-degree murder, for example. Then there’s manslaughter, which is murder in the _general_ sense, even though a legal distinction is often drawn between the two. On top of those, you also have criminally negligent homicide and so-called “wrongful death.” The bottom line is that not all murders are equal, and not all should be prosecuted in the same way. I’ll leave the details to those who are more thoroughly well-versed in these legal distinctions; however, the point remains. I I do not see any clear reason why abortion should \*necessarily \* be treated in exactly the same manner as other forms of murder. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/108 "2006-03-12T04:48:08Z")
**John Mace** , thank you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/109 "2006-03-12T04:55:32Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > I do not see any clear reason why abortion should \*necessarily \* be treated in exactly the same manner as other forms of murder. The different degrees of murder all depend upon the intent of the killer. Was the action premeditated or done in the heat of passion? Was the intention to kill the victim or did the death occur as a by-product of some other crime? Was it just an accident? The law doesn’t recognize victims as being different classes of human being. (There are a few exceptions to this. The murder of a government official like a police officer or a judge is punished more harshly than the murder of a private citizen. In certain circumstances the murder of a member of a minority group may be deemed a hate crime deserving of increased punishment. But in all these cases the increased punishment is justified on the grounds that those types of murders are attacks on society as well as the individual. It’s hard to see how this sort of reasoning could apply to abortion.) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/110 "2006-03-12T05:12:34Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Before _Roe v. Wade_, even in the 1950s, the vast majority of illegal abortions in the U.S. were performed by licensed physicians. The number of abortion-related deaths in the U.S. was already declining rapidly in the 1960s before _Roe v. Wade_ — obviously, not through legal elective abortions (only three states had them), but through improvements in obstetrics. > > But if “back alley abortions” rallies the troops, don’t let the facts stop ya. “The vast majority”? I dunno. A lot of them undoubtedly were. And it was wrong to outlaw them then, and it’s wrong to outlaw them now. And some were undoubtedly performed by non-physicians … and there were undoubtedly some women who died that way. It would be a hard thing to get stats on due to the culture of shame that was so powerful back then with regard to sex. Even one woman dead in that way is wrong. I suspect there will be many, many more than one woman killed if the anti-choice folks win, and they WILL rally the troops. Believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/111 "2006-03-12T05:21:33Z")
Sorry about the previous post. A lot of unclear antecedents there. Let’s see if I can get it clearer: > [@](#): > > A lot of them undoubtedly were. And it was wrong to outlaw them then, and it’s wrong to outlaw them now. And some were undoubtedly performed by non-physicians … Should read (revised text in BF): A lot of **abortions** undoubtedly were **performed by licensed physicians.** And it was wrong to outlaw **those physicians back in the 50s** , and i’ts wrong to outlaw them now. And some **abortions** were … I should be hitting the sack soon, writing that sloppy annoys the bejezus out of me. And I’m not even being paid for it, which annoys me even more. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/112 "2006-03-12T05:23:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > It seemed you based a moral ‘score’ on the ability to feel pain. Also a 2 yr old dog is more mentally complex then a just born baby, does that place the dog higher? First, all the emotions and intellectual functions matter, not just pain. Second, we don’t know that a dog _is_ more complex that a newborn; the dog is older, but the infant has brains the dog will never have. Besides, it’s irrelevant since there isn’t any comparison between dogs & babies and abortion. A fetus is closer “mentally” to a plant or insect than a dog. > [@duffer](#): > > I’m assuming you mean to infer that a tumor has a right to live? Of course not. I’m pointing out that a tumor has no right to live for the same reason a fetus has no right to live; it’s not a person. > [@Stratocaster](#): > > No, my position is absolutely moral. It is simultaneously one that is more politically expedient. Nice, eh? No, it’s evil. It’s nothing more than the persecution of women and children. > [@Stratocaster](#): > > How cowardly! This is most amusing. Lazy, perhaps, but hardly cowardly. > [@Walloon](#): > > Before _Roe v. Wade_, even in the 1950s, the vast majority of illegal abortions in the U.S. were performed by licensed physicians. The number of abortion-related deaths in the U.S. was already declining rapidly in the 1960s before _Roe v. Wade_ — obviously, not through legal elective abortions (only three states had them), but through improvements in obstetrics. > > But if “back alley abortions” rallies the troops, don’t let the facts stop ya. That was then, this is now. If doctors are imprisoned or executed for peroming abortions, I doubt many will be willing to perform them. > [@Pochacco](#): > > So far I’m hearing from the pro-life people who have posted that they don’t believe that women should be punished for getting abortions. My question to them is “Why not?” While I’m hardly “pro life”, I expect the real answer is that they _do_ intend to punish women; they just won’t admit it until the antiabortion laws they want are in place. _Then_ they’ll point out that if abortion is murder it should be treated as murder, and demand that when who are convicted of abortion get life imprisonment or execution. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/113 "2006-03-12T05:28:02Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > “The vast majority”? I dunno. A lot of them undoubtedly were. [I already cited the testimony of Mary Calderone, Planned Parenthood’s medical director](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7185877&postcount=41). Please don’t make me post it again. Calderone specifically said that 90% of illegal abortions were performed by licensed physicians. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/114 "2006-03-12T05:34:29Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > [I already cited the testimony of Mary Calderone, Planned Parenthood’s medical director](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7185877&postcount=41). Please don’t make me post it again. Calderone specifically said that 90% of illegal abortions were performed by licensed physicians. I’m curious why you insist on this statistic. It could be true. I don’t know. I don’t care. But how does it in any way help the anti-abortion cause? “No, no. There won’t be backalley abortions because doctors will be standing by to take your call!” ? I get the impression you think this is some sort of trump card, and I just don’t follow. Yes, if abortion is made illegal but there are enough doctors willing to perform them anyway, then illegal abortions will be performed by doctors. Is that supposed to make me less upset about the prospect of abortions being illegal? Is that supposed to make someone on the fence swing anti-abortion because the illegal abortions that happen will be safer? What? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/115 "2006-03-12T05:37:51Z")
> [@bluethree](#): > > I imagine that she’s talking about an embryo, which is what gets aborted 85% of the time in America, rather than a fetus. But oh how the pro-lifers like to inaccurately call it a fetus. Even if we grant that distinction, [the unborn already has a developing brain before the sixth week of gestation](http://www.pregnancy.org/pregnancy/fetaldevelopment1.php). In fact, this brain is necessary in order to sustain the unborn’s heartbeat. It is simply not accurate to say that it has no brain whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/116 "2006-03-12T05:41:02Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’m curious why you insist on this statistic. It could be true. I don’t know. I don’t care. But how does it in any way help the anti-abortion cause? Do you doubt this statistic? Remember, it came straight from Planned Parenthood. Are you saying that Planned Parenthood was not presenting the truth? Anyway, this statistic is relevant because **Evil Captor** expressed doubt about the claim that the vast majority of illegal abortions were performed by duly licensed physicians. I’m merely pointing out that Planned Parenthood’s own medical director is the one who made that claim – quite emphatically, I might add. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/117 "2006-03-12T05:46:01Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Do you doubt this statistic? Remember, it came straight from Planned Parenthood. Are you saying that Planned Parenthood was not presenting the truth? Why would I care one way or the other about the statistic? Why is the statistic relevant? Why do you care so much about the statistic that you bring it up in most abortion debates? What’s in it for you(r side)? How does it bolster your cause? How does it discredit mine? The only thing I could take away from accepting your stat is, “Oh, so illegal abortions were really safe.” Well, thanks for letting me know that! It’s good to hear that if I ever need an illegal abortion, it’ll be just dandy! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/118 "2006-03-12T05:48:39Z")
I’m going to post a plea here. **Could be people posting to this thread please address the OP?** The question is: If abortion is made illegal what should the punishment be **and why**? So far all I’ve heard is that women shouldn’t be punished because it’s not politically expedient to do so. But is this politically expedient approach logical or morally sound? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/119 "2006-03-12T05:50:14Z")
I shall slink away with my hijack between my legs. Er, or something. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/120 "2006-03-12T05:51:12Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Why would I care one way or the other about the statistic? Why is the statistic relevant? Why do you care so much about the statistic that you bring it up in most abortion debates? Pay attention. I bring it up whenever a pro-choicer talks about the millions of back-alley abortions that allegedly occured – or in this case, because **Evil Captor** expressed doubt that these abortions were mostly performed by physicians. Why is this statistic relevant? Because it directyl counters the myth of those back alley abortions. Golly gee whiz. I guess it’s okay to claim that women were dying by the thousands due to illegal abortions… until the facts are presented. Then all of a sudden it’s “Why should I care one way or another?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=7)