# Pro-lifers: What should the punishment for getting an abortion be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899 "2006-03-11T00:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/141 "2006-03-12T13:29:47Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > I’m going to post a plea here. > > **Could be people posting to this thread please address the OP?** > > The question is: If abortion is made illegal what should the punishment be **and why**? > > So far all I’ve heard is that women shouldn’t be punished because it’s not politically expedient to do so. But is this politically expedient approach logical or morally sound? I agree it’s politically expedient, but I also posted that I think the act is unique in that most of those who seek the procedure do NOT believe they are seeking an immoral act. The acrimony in these threads demonstrate the ambivalence surrounding the act for many, many people. That ambivalence doesn’t exist to any significant degree for an act like the premeditated murder of a business associate (just as an example). So, I don’t want women prosecuted because it would be political suicide to take that approach and (and more important) I don’t think desperate, misguided women who don’t believe they are doing wrong need to be thrown in jail. And this belief is not at all inconsistent with the belief that a human being is killed when an abortion is performed. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/142 "2006-03-12T14:26:49Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > According to the [most recent CDC report on the issue](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5407a1.htm), about 60% of abortions in the U.S. are performed at or before 8 weeks. Notice the phrasing, though: **at or before** 8 weeks. In other words, the 60% figure includes abortions that occur within the eighth week. Besides, I’m sure that the precise figures vary from one year to another. More to the point though, **bluethree** said that 85% of all abortions occur at the embryonic stage. So even if we ignore the 8th week distinction, that would still make the 85% figure grossly inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/143 "2006-03-12T14:29:55Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > That ambivalence doesn’t exist to any significant degree for an act like the premeditated murder of a business associate (just as an example). So, I don’t want women prosecuted because it would be political suicide to take that approach and (and more important) I don’t think desperate, misguided women who don’t believe they are doing wrong need to be thrown in jail. Exactly right. That’s why the intent in committing murder is relevant to this discussion. Earlier, I talked about different degrees of murder (first-degree, second-degree, manslaughter, wrongful death, etc). These are distinguished by one’s intent in committing murder. That’s why I see no reason why women who commit abortion should necessarily be prosecuted for, say, first-degree murder. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/144 "2006-03-12T15:05:25Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Notice the phrasing, though: **at or before** 8 weeks. In other words, the 60% figure includes abortions that occur within the eighth week. Well, you said “most abortions do not occur until _after_ the 8th week” (_emphasis_ added). Which is mathematically incorrect; 40% of abortions occur after the 8th week, and 40% is not “most”. > [@](#): > > Besides, I’m sure that the precise figures vary from one year to another. There have been some dips but overall the percentage of U.S. abortions performed in the first 8 weeks of pregnancy has significantly increased since _Roe v. Wade_, from 36.1% in 1973 to 60.5% in 2002. > [@](#): > > More to the point though, **bluethree** said that 85% of all abortions occur at the embryonic stage. So even if we ignore the 8th week distinction, that would still make the 85% figure grossly inaccurate. If somebody makes an inaccurate statement I don’t think you should make an inaccurate statement back at them just to even things up. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/145 "2006-03-12T15:21:53Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Well, I’m pretty sure you and I would disagree about what is “private.” So, there you go. “Private,” to me, means something that affects only the people agreeing to the activity in question. “Private” does not equal “legal” to me, either. A brothel can keep its shades drawn, but that doesn’t mean it’s OK in my neighborhood. We probably do disagree on what constitutes privacy - when it comes to that, I’m more of a libertarian sort. This is an issue that should be between the woman and her doctor. It should not be between her, her doctor, and whatever politician is “playing to his base” for poll points or re-election. It’s a cynical view, but cynicism can be useful. A brothel is a “whole nother thing”. It is legal to operate a brothel in parts of Nevada, and the world hasn’t ended yet. But I don’t want one on my block either. One could argue there, that nobody is suffering harm, and there is no compelling interest (at least in Nevada) to shut them down. There is something about the concept of privacy - some sense that it should not depend on a vote, a changing political climate, or the changing whims of local/state/federal government without some pressing and serious need. Finally, most pro-life platforms that I’m aware of, are based squarely on religion, and don’t even try to pretend otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/146 "2006-03-12T15:45:47Z")
> [@](#): > > **Shagnasty** said: > Women tend to get funny around real-live babies even if they try to pretend that isn’t their thing at the moment. You have obviously never met me. > [@](#): > > I just figured the fact that they lost their chance at ever giving birth again (sterilization) would be a pretty cruel punishment if you make them immediately go play with babies afterwards. Every time I am near a child it reaffirms the fact that I do not ever want to have any of them. > [@](#): > > **arquvan** said: > I would have been thrilled if I could have at 20 when I haad my tubes tied just had the whole uterus removed and avoided the past 24 years of off and on bloating, bleeding, cramps and a serious amount of cash spent on sanitary supplies, pain killers wasted sick days/unpaid sick days and blood-damaged clothing. Hell yeah. If I could walk into a hospital tomorrow and have a LAVH, I’d gladly hop up onto the operating table. > [@](#): > > **Stagger Lee** said: > One is to harshly punnish women who have abortions such that the threat of punnishment outweighs the desire for an abortion. If I’m willing to risk death to have an illegal abortion, what punishment do you think you could come up with that would deter me? > [@](#): > > **jsgoddess** said: > Shove it underground, the pipelines for smuggled RU486 become bigger, it could easily penetrate markets where a clinic couldn’t survive, no publicity, no preaching, no gauntlets, no major travel. They’d probably be about as difficult to buy as cocaine. As in, not very. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/147 "2006-03-12T15:52:49Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Finally, most pro-life platforms that I’m aware of, are based squarely on religion, and don’t even try to pretend otherwise. Perhaps. I don’t know. I know mine isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/148 "2006-03-12T16:02:19Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Perhaps. I don’t know. I know mine isn’t. If so, then I think you are the exception. Question time - What exactly is your position, and what is it based on? Where did it come from? What is the “underpinning” you base yourself on? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/149 "2006-03-12T18:41:03Z")
A temporarily unconscious person has at one time formed a sense of identity. They have had a desire to live, and since it generally doesn’t hurt anyone to let them continue to live, the best thing to do is allow them to. Now, if there was a situation where medical care was being strictly rationed, I bet we’d see the unconscious people being taken off the medical equipment first. An embryo, on the other, has no more sense of identity than a ficus. They cannot distinguish themselves from their surrounding. They may have instincts to avoid death, but if you could somehow make one understand “you are going to die”, they would not care. Because they have no concept of life, death, themselves or the future. They would not miss anything. They would not mourn their passing. They have no more sense of meaning than a kitten- and I can take a kitten down to the shelter any day and have it gassed no questions asked. Embryos do hurt people though. Pregnancy is not a minor inconvenience. It changes your body forever, sometimes in very major ways. Unlike unconscious people, an embryo can cause great harm. So we consider them- like kittens- okay to kill in situations where they are causing harm. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/150 "2006-03-12T18:50:30Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > If abortion was ever to become illegal then many women would become underworld criminal types. How would they become “underworld criminal types” if the abortion laws target abortion providers, not the pregnant woman? No one seriously believes a law targeting a pregnant woman for punishment would pass a state legislature. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/151 "2006-03-12T19:02:23Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I agree it’s politically expedient, but I also posted that I think the act is unique in that most of those who seek the procedure do NOT believe they are seeking an immoral act. That’s hardly unique, or even all that unusual. Drugs and prostitution come to mind. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/152 "2006-03-12T19:14:29Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > How would they become “underworld criminal types” if the abortion laws target abortion providers, not the pregnant woman? No one seriously believes a law targeting a pregnant woman for punishment would pass a state legislature. So, if there is no abortion provider, there is no punishment? Women would be free to use RU486, for example, without repercussions? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/153 "2006-03-12T19:15:55Z")
**Walloon** , I will admit that I was wrong about the motivations for the original anti-abortion laws. I seem to have assimilated faulty information… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/154 "2006-03-12T19:35:24Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Exactly right. That’s why the intent in committing murder is relevant to this discussion. > > Earlier, I talked about different degrees of murder (first-degree, second-degree, manslaughter, wrongful death, etc). These are distinguished by one’s intent in committing murder. That’s why I see no reason why women who commit abortion should necessarily be prosecuted for, say, first-degree murder. Maybe you missed this when I posted it earlier. > [@](#): > > MURDER, FIRST DEGREE - In order for someone to be found guilty of first degree murder the government must prove that the person killed another person; the person killed the other person with malice aforethought; and the killing was premeditated. > > To kill with malice aforethought means to kill either deliberately and intentionally or recklessly with extreme disregard for human life. > > Premeditation means with planning or deliberation. The amount of time needed for premeditation of a killing depends on the person and the circumstances. It must be long enough, after forming the intent to kill, for the killer to have been fully conscious of the intent and to have considered the killing. > > SOURCE: [Legal Definition of First Degree Murder](http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m053.htm) Different states have differing criteria that need to be met that elevates first degree murder to capital murder (i.e. a possible death penalty offense if the state has a death penalty) but near as I can tell the above definition will fit for any state. So, once again if we start with the premise that abortion = murder then I see no way around the above that is logically consistent. I see NOTHING in there that suggests the murderer’s state of mind is a factor. Perhaps at the sentencing phase of the trial the murderer’s state of mind is relevant as a possible mitigating factor but not to decide guilt. Add in that I believe crimes such as this have minimum mandatory sentences regardless of mitigating circumstances and it is a sure bet those convited of first degree murder will be going to jail for a very long time (which does not even enter death penalty territory). If my understanding of the law is correct then this would cover at the least the woman seeking the abortion, the doctor performing the abortion, anyone aiding the doctor performing the abortion (e.g. nurse) and anyone who drove the woman to get the abortion (assuming she did not drive herself). The net might be cast wider…I do not know…but the above seem to definitely be within the scope of a first degree murder rap. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/155 "2006-03-12T19:45:02Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Women would be free to use RU486, for example, without repercussions? The [Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act](http://www.fda.gov/opacom/laws/fdcact/fdctoc.htm) targets those who sell or dispense prescription drugs without a prescription, not the user who so obtains the drug (21 U.S.C. 353). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/156 "2006-03-12T19:55:59Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I don’t think desperate, misguided women who don’t believe they are doing wrong need to be thrown in jail. Since when has personally believing a criminal act is not a criminal act been any sort of defense in any court of law anywhere for any reason? Since when has a person’s state of mind absolved them of their crimes? For instance, by all accounts Andrea Yates was very mentally unstable for a good while leading up to her murder of her five children. That got her (it seems) off of death row for those crimes but she is in jail for life now. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/157 "2006-03-12T19:58:23Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > The [Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act](http://www.fda.gov/opacom/laws/fdcact/fdctoc.htm) targets those who sell or dispense prescription drugs without a prescription, not the user who so obtains the drug (21 U.S.C. 353). So, you’re saying yes. Women will be free to use RU486 without any legal repercussions. There will simply be another drug for the drug warriors to go after. It wouldn’t be a “prescription drug” of course, so I don’t think your cite is relevant. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/158 "2006-03-12T20:00:02Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Since when has personally believing a criminal act is not a criminal act been any sort of defense in any court of law anywhere for any reason? Since when has a person’s state of mind absolved them of their crimes? It’s actually amusing (in a sad way) that it would be only the “pro-life” women who should be prosecuted for a crime, according to him. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/159 "2006-03-12T20:00:08Z")
**Whack-a-Mole** , perhaps the fact that women in the U.S. have never prosecuted for murder in the matter of abortion, even under the strictist pre-_Roe_ abortion laws, may suggest that your legal interpretation is not shared. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899/160 "2006-03-12T20:05:01Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It wouldn’t be a “prescription drug” of course, so I don’t think your cite is relevant. RU-486 (mifepristone) [certainly is](http://www.religioustolerance.org/aboru486.htm) a prescription drug in the U.S. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-what-should-the-punishment-for-getting-an-abortion-be/347899.md?page=9)