# Pro-lifers, why are you voting for McCain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576 "2008-10-18T23:30:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/41 "2008-10-20T16:10:51Z")
Let me make a point please. It may be true that Obama has a plan to reduce abortions through education. But if we go by his rhetoric on this subject, then we must also conclude that he also has a plan to, through his support of the Freedom of Choice Act, overturn every state restriction of abortion before the stage of viability, including those found consistent with Roe in the past. This would include religious exceptions for providers and certain counseling requirements, including those concerning Down’s syndrome. It would also repeal the restriction of federal funding, and the ban on partial-birth abortions. This isn’t a moderate view on the subject. Obama has his flag firmly in one camp here, and that includes measures that an otherwise pro-choice America don’t necessarily favor, like federal funding for abortions and the aforementioned partial birth procedures. So I think a case can easily be made that he’s the most abortion-friendly candidate in recent history, and however he might want to put the debate behind us, some of these extreme views would only serve to inflame it further. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/42 "2008-10-20T18:07:19Z")
The plain facts are that sexual education does not reduce pregnancies. So Obama’s plans are just a feint to fool gullible people who are not as pro-abortion as he is. If McCain is elected and Roe v Wade is overturned abortions will not go away, but they will be reduced. If Obama gets his way abortions will be legal in every state for any reason. Taxpayer money will be used to fund abortions here and abroad. He is the most pro-abortion candidate ever nominated. All this is readily apparent from even a cursory examination of the candidates records. All the rhetoric about wanting to reduce abortion is just political cover for their real motives. Most liberals are selfish people who think of children as nuisances. They want to kill children so they can lead their selfish lives unencumbered with any distractions from innocent and needy children. Spend any time around liberals and their hatred of children is readily apparent. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/43 "2008-10-20T19:13:06Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > They want to kill children so they can lead their selfish lives unencumbered with any distractions from innocent and needy children. Spend any time around liberals and their hatred of children is readily apparent. :eek: :dubious: ☹ :mad: My friends–liberals and parents, every one–will get a kick out of reading this ridiculous comment. You’re not doing your side of the political spectrum any favors uttering stupid crackpot bullshit like this. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/44 "2008-10-20T19:15:23Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > :eek: > > :dubious: > > ☹ > > :mad: > > My friends–liberals and parents, every one–will get a kick out of reading this ridiculous comment. You’re not doing your side of the political spectrum any favors uttering stupid crackpot bullshit like this. > > -FrL- It looks like the pro-life side on the SDMB has its own Der Trihs. :dubious: Hooray. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/45 "2008-10-20T19:16:35Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The plain facts are that sexual education does not reduce pregnancies. So Obama’s plans are just a feint to fool gullible people who are not as pro-abortion as he is. If McCain is elected and Roe v Wade is overturned abortions will not go away, but they will be reduced. If Obama gets his way abortions will be legal in every state for any reason. Taxpayer money will be used to fund abortions here and abroad. He is the most pro-abortion candidate ever nominated. > All this is readily apparent from even a cursory examination of the candidates records. All the rhetoric about wanting to reduce abortion is just political cover for their real motives. Most liberals are selfish people who think of children as nuisances. They want to kill children so they can lead their selfish lives unencumbered with any distractions from innocent and needy children. Spend any time around liberals and their hatred of children is readily apparent. What utter garbage. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/46 "2008-10-20T19:33:20Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > :eek: > > :dubious: > > ☹ > > :mad: > > My friends–liberals and parents, every one–will get a kick out of reading this ridiculous comment. You’re not doing your side of the political spectrum any favors uttering stupid crackpot bullshit like this. > > -FrL- Once they get over the initial headache, anyways. Bring some Advil :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/47 "2008-10-20T20:04:42Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Let me make a point please. > > It may be true that Obama has a plan to reduce abortions through education. But if we go by his rhetoric on this subject, then we must also conclude that he also has a plan to, through his support of the Freedom of Choice Act, overturn every state restriction of abortion before the stage of viability, including those found consistent with Roe in the past. This would include religious exceptions for providers and certain counseling requirements, including those concerning Down’s syndrome. It would also repeal the restriction of federal funding, and the ban on partial-birth abortions. > > This isn’t a moderate view on the subject. Obama has his flag firmly in one camp here, and that includes measures that an otherwise pro-choice America don’t necessarily favor, like federal funding for abortions and the aforementioned partial birth procedures. So I think a case can easily be made that he’s the most abortion-friendly candidate in recent history, and however he might want to put the debate behind us, some of these extreme views would only serve to inflame it further. What Mr Moto said. Trying to portray Obama’s overwhelming support for abortion rights as a pro-life position falls under political spin. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/48 "2008-10-20T20:07:30Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The plain facts are that sexual education does not reduce pregnancies. So Obama’s plans are just a feint to fool gullible people who are not as pro-abortion as he is. If McCain is elected and Roe v Wade is overturned abortions will not go away, but they will be reduced. If Obama gets his way abortions will be legal in every state for any reason. Taxpayer money will be used to fund abortions here and abroad. He is the most pro-abortion candidate ever nominated. > All this is readily apparent from even a cursory examination of the candidates records. All the rhetoric about wanting to reduce abortion is just political cover for their real motives. Most liberals are selfish people who think of children as nuisances. They want to kill children so they can lead their selfish lives unencumbered with any distractions from innocent and needy children. Spend any time around liberals and their hatred of children is readily apparent. I am a pregnant liberal, and I do not approve of this message. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/49 "2008-10-20T20:11:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What utter garbage. I have to agree. I’d prefer to ignore that entirely, but I’d hate to have that misinterpreted as agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/50 "2008-10-20T20:27:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How about this: overruling _Roe v. Wade_ would be the right thing to do. Sure, but doesn’t saving babies sort of trump that goal? If Obama can save more unborn children than McCain, then who cares about getting the law right? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/51 "2008-10-20T20:42:54Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > If Obama can save more unborn children than McCain, then who cares about getting the law right? Huh? I don’t know whether you’ve noticed, but as a society we have little control over the billions of discrete decisions made by people every day. What little influence we have comes from societal norms, some social welfare programs, some economic forces and taxation, and the rather blunt and crude instrument called the law. Now, the law isn’t a particularly elegant tool - it makes few distinctions about individual cases and is in general one size fits all. Given this limitation, it is crucial that that law is “got right.” Got it? ---
**Author:** ![Caveat\_lector\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@Caveat\_lector\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caveat_lector_1)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/52 "2008-10-20T22:16:26Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > All the rhetoric about wanting to reduce abortion is just political cover for their real motives. Most liberals are selfish people who think of children as nuisances. They want to kill children so they can lead their selfish lives unencumbered with any distractions from innocent and needy children. Spend any time around liberals and their hatred of children is readily apparent. Look I’m about as anti-abortion as they come to the point where I have to go calm myself down if I think about it to much, but this is way off. Remember the vast majority of people who favor having abortion as an option don’t see what is being killed as a person. Now I think they are incredibly and tragically mistaken, but I really don’t think most pro-choice people hate children. Now are there people who get abortions for what seem to me like selfish reasons? Yes, but I really don’t think the understand what they are doing. Also are there people who are okay with abortion even if it can be shown its a person be killed? Yes, but I’ve only seen that position twice in my life and both times were in fairly obscure books of medical ethics and so I doubt any sizable percentage of people hold that view. And to say that all _Liberals_ think this way is even further off. One can be Liberal and pro-life. My father comes to mind. You can’t even _mention_ Republicans or their policies around him and he is very pro-life. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/53 "2008-10-20T22:26:52Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Sure, but doesn’t saving babies sort of trump that goal? If Obama can save more unborn children than McCain, then who cares about getting the law right? There are several reasons this is not correct. The eminently practical: Obama goes away in four or eight years; the laws remain. Better to get the laws right. That assumes, of course, that we even accept the general notion that Obama’s approach will “save babies” over McCain’s. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/54 "2008-10-20T23:10:33Z")
> [@Caveat\_lector\_1](#): > > Also are there people who are okay with abortion even if it can be shown its a person be killed? Yes, but I’ve only seen that position twice in my life and both times were in fairly obscure books of medical ethics and so I doubt any sizable percentage of people hold that view. This is an aside, but…A good portion of certain kinds of extremely radical leftists in fact believe that if abortion is okay in any case, it’s okay in every case, including for use as birth control. I’ve personally witnessed conversations between hardcore feminists who agreed that abortion is killing and still felt it was acceptable. I wouldn’t say it’s a sizable percentage of people, but there is a dedicated minority base within a fringe of political thought which does consider itself pro-abortion (and not just pro-choice), and rejects the typical Democratic ‘necessary tragedy’ party line. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/55 "2008-10-21T02:01:22Z")
If you all are just going to find fringe arguments from opposing sides to prove insurmountable orthodoxy and not bother to find common ground why post here? Shout at a wall. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/56 "2008-10-21T04:20:07Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > If you all are just going to find fringe arguments from opposing sides to prove insurmountable orthodoxy and not bother to find common ground why post here? > > Shout at a wall. Er…was this directed at me? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/57 "2008-10-21T04:22:43Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The plain facts are that sexual education does not reduce pregnancies. So Obama’s plans are just a feint to fool gullible people who are not as pro-abortion as he is. If McCain is elected and Roe v Wade is overturned abortions will not go away, but they will be reduced. If Obama gets his way abortions will be legal in every state for any reason. Taxpayer money will be used to fund abortions here and abroad. He is the most pro-abortion candidate ever nominated. > All this is readily apparent from even a cursory examination of the candidates records. All the rhetoric about wanting to reduce abortion is just political cover for their real motives. Most liberals are selfish people who think of children as nuisances. They want to kill children so they can lead their selfish lives unencumbered with any distractions from innocent and needy children. Spend any time around liberals and their hatred of children is readily apparent. You should seek help. I never heard such garbage . The term is pro choice for a reason. Many do not agree that abortion is murder. What makes you believe that you should decide for them. Who are you? Are there any liberals on this board encumbered with children. I have a kid and I am a liberal. I must be the only liberal with a kid. But just think, next generation you win. All the liberals will be gone because they kill their children. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/58 "2008-10-21T13:18:51Z")
**TWEEEET!** If everyone now has gotten the bile out of their systems, let’s drop all the generic attacks on one’s opponents as stupid or malevolent or evil or dishonest, etc. For an abortion discussion, this thread has attracted a number of actually well considered and reasonable posts from both sides. The shit flinging was inevitable, of course, but it has now been flung. If anyone needs to make those sort of inflammatory statements, open a separate thread in [the BBQ Pit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=5). They do not belong here. **[/Moderating]** ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/59 "2008-10-21T13:41:15Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Many do not agree that abortion is murder. What makes you believe that you should decide for them. Who are you? Well, there was a time that many people did not believe that blacks were fully human. Was it right for other people to decide that blacks were worthy of protection? ` ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2008, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576/60 "2008-10-21T13:44:21Z")
> [@Ensign\_Edison](#): > > I’ve personally witnessed conversations between hardcore feminists who agreed that abortion is killing and still felt it was acceptable. [Judith Jarvis Thompson and Eileen McDonagh](http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5689), for example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-lifers-why-are-you-voting-for-mccain/468576.md?page=4)