# pro-Palestinian thread, part 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232 "2009-11-11T21:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/181 "2009-11-17T16:43:46Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] I’m just happy we both agree that Jews were a tiny minority in Palestine until the organised Zionist immigration. [/QUOTE] I never disagreed with the point, old boy…was merely asking about the percentage. What we disagree with is what it means, since you seem to be fixated on the raw numbers, while I’m trying to explain what the numbers actually mean, and put them into a historical context of what was happening at the time, and why things happened the way they did. You seemingly only want to point to the numbers as some kind of proof that the Jews came in and stole the Palestinian’s ‘country’ from them, which, historically, isn’t even a rough approximation of what actually happened. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/182 "2009-11-17T16:44:30Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, the very nature of a war zone means “rights”, especially “future rights” are kinda up for grabs. That’s just reality though, don’t let it throw you. > So, can you say even one positive thing about Israel? It won’t mean anything, I’m just curious. I can’t think of anything positive about Israel, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/183 "2009-11-17T16:46:47Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > So immigrants to America have the right to declare a state in the middle of America? Which American state would be OK with that? If the American government withdrew from the region - as the British government withdrew from Mandatory Palestine - then yes, absolutely. > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I can’t think of anything positive about Israel, sorry. That’s because you don’t \*know \*anything. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/184 "2009-11-17T16:46:48Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > So immigrants to America have the right to declare a state in the middle of America? Which American state would be OK with that? There wasn’t any _pre-existing_ state in palestine to complain. It was part of the Turkish empire and then, grabbed by the British, part of the British empire under a “mandate”. Jews and Arabs alike were subjects of the Turkish Empire originally. That’s sort of the whole point. Arabs living in the place would have to “create” a state just as much as Jews living in the place. That was the original plan - to create two states: an Arab one, and a Jewish one. Only the Arab leaders rejected it, opting to instead wipe out the Jews in '48. The Jews won the resulting war, took even more land than what had been previously agreed; the Arab leaders noticably failed to create a “Palestine” out of what is now the West Bank (it was incorporated, together with its population, into Jordan). ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/185 "2009-11-17T16:48:05Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Last time I checked America was a sovereign state. During the period when Israel formed it’s own state it was NOT a sovereign state. Far from it…it was a British Protectorate and essentially a colonial possession of the crown. So, it’s an apples to oranges comparison…and one you seem reluctant to let go of, since you’ve used this before in the thread and were told the same thing. > > -XT I wasn’t making that argument, read what i was replying to again. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/186 "2009-11-17T16:50:05Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If the American government withdrew from the region - as the British government withdrew from Mandatory Palestine - then yes, absolutely. > > That’s because you don’t \*know \*anything. How well would the American people react to that? And I’ve forgotten more about this than you know. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/187 "2009-11-17T16:52:10Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] I wasn’t making that argument, read what i was replying to again. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Alessan] They have the same right to declare a country as any indigenous people. If the Palestinians could declare independence, why couldn’t the Jews? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] So immigrants to America have the right to declare a state in the middle of America? Which American state would be OK with that? [/QUOTE] Ok, so this is only about people immigrating to the US then. You then agree that the Jews had as much right as the Palestinian’s to legally immigrate, and as much right as the Palestinian’s to declare independence (from the British Empire in one of their protectorate regions), yes? Well great! We are in agreement then! -XT ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/188 "2009-11-17T16:52:28Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I never disagreed with the point, old boy…was merely asking about the percentage. What we disagree with is what it means, since you seem to be fixated on the raw numbers, while I’m trying to explain what the numbers actually mean, and put them into a historical context of what was happening at the time, and why things happened the way they did. You seemingly only want to point to the numbers as some kind of proof that the Jews came in and stole the Palestinian’s ‘country’ from them, which, historically, isn’t even a rough approximation of what actually happened. > > -XT The historical context was that the Jewish population of Palestine was negligible until there was an organised Zionist movement in America and Europe that raised money to fund the settlement of Jews in historic Palestine with the eventual aim of setting up a state there. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/189 "2009-11-17T16:54:37Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Ok, so this is only about people immigrating to the US then. You then agree that the Jews had as much right as the Palestinian’s to legally immigrate, and as much right as the Palestinian’s to declare independence (from the British Empire in one of their protectorate regions), yes? Well great! We are in agreement then! > > -XT I don’t agree that they had as much right as the Palestinians to set a state up there. It wasn’t possible for them to set a state up with massive ethnic cleansing as the founders of Israel admitted themselves. I don’t think any state can be set up on the back of ethnic cleansing. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/190 "2009-11-17T16:56:38Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] The historical context was that the Jewish population of Palestine was negligible until there was an organised Zionist movement in America and Europe that raised money to fund the settlement of Jews in historic Palestine with the eventual aim of setting up a state there. [/QUOTE] Yes…and? Again, was the immigration legal or not? Were the purchases of land legal or not? By the time independence was ACTUALLY declared, both groups had significant numbers in the region (and due to improvements to the region it was actually worth fighting for). The ACTUAL sovereign of the region (i.e. the Brits) had waved their claims on the land. The UN sought to settle the issue bloodlessly by granting BOTH groups sovereign rights. The Israeli’s accepted the division…the Palestinian’s did not. The issue was settled through force of arms, with not just the Palestinian’s but with all of the other surrounding Arab nations jumping in. -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/191 "2009-11-17T16:59:14Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] I don’t agree that they had as much right as the Palestinians to set a state up there. It wasn’t possible for them to set a state up with massive ethnic cleansing as the founders of Israel admitted themselves. I don’t think any state can be set up on the back of ethnic cleansing. [/QUOTE] Really? Do you have a cite that the founders of Israel said that? Because I’d have to ask the question…why did Israel agree to the UN division and dual sovereignty then? They signed off on it after all…while the Palestinian’s were the ones who rejected it. Why did Palestine NOT agree and decide to go for the whole shooting match? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/192 "2009-11-17T17:01:18Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I don’t agree that they had as much right as the Palestinians to set a state up there. It wasn’t possible for them to set a state up with massive ethnic cleansing as the founders of Israel admitted themselves. I don’t think any state can be set up on the back of ethnic cleansing. By that logic you have a bit of a dilemma, as by 1948 there were lots of Jews living in the region. If setting up a Jewish state requires “massive ethnic cleansing”, presumably settng up an Arab state would as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/193 "2009-11-17T17:03:06Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Yes…and? Again, was the immigration legal or not? Were the purchases of land legal or not? By the time independence was ACTUALLY declared, both groups had significant numbers in the region (and due to improvements to the region it was actually worth fighting for). The ACTUAL sovereign of the region (i.e. the Brits) had waved their claims on the land. The UN sought to settle the issue bloodlessly by granting BOTH groups sovereign rights. The Israeli’s accepted the division…the Palestinian’s did not. The issue was settled through force of arms, with not just the Palestinian’s but with all of the other surrounding Arab nations jumping in. > > -XT I think I effectively showed the historical context of immigration to Palestine in the Zionist-settler era. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/194 "2009-11-17T17:03:49Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] And I’ve forgotten more about this than you know. [/QUOTE] Some friendly advice…check out Alessan’s location some time before making statements like the above. He LIVES there. And, frankly, I question your own grasp of all of this, in any case. Anyone who can sit there and say they can think of NO good thing to say about a country is so far beyond biased that there is really little point in continuing to debate them. Hell, I can think of good things to say about Nazi Germany and the USSR. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/195 "2009-11-17T17:04:23Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > By that logic you have a bit of a dilemma, as by 1948 there were lots of Jews living in the region. > > If setting up a Jewish state requires “massive ethnic cleansing”, presumably settng up an Arab state would as well. None at all, Palestinians were the majority pretty much everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/196 "2009-11-17T17:04:50Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] I think I effectively showed the historical context of immigration to Palestine in the Zionist-settler era. [/QUOTE] No, but I did. However, what do you suppose it proved? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/197 "2009-11-17T17:06:57Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > The historical context was that the Jewish population of Palestine was negligible until there was an organised Zionist movement in America and Europe that raised money to fund the settlement of Jews in historic Palestine with the eventual aim of setting up a state there. Damn right they did. One of the greatest achievements of the 20th Century, that was. What, I should be embarrassed about my country’s history? The hell with that. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/198 "2009-11-17T17:08:44Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Really? Do you have a cite that the founders of Israel said that? Because I’d have to ask the question…why did Israel agree to the UN division and dual sovereignty then? They signed off on it after all…while the Palestinian’s were the ones who rejected it. Why did Palestine NOT agree and decide to go for the whole shooting match? > > -XT **Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, whose parents fled persecution in Nazi Germany in the 1930s, minces no words in telling the real story of Zionism’s crimes against the Palestinians…** **For example, in 1937 Ben-Gurion told the Jewish Agency Executive, the organization charged with procuring land for Jewish settlements in Palestine, “I am for compulsory transfer; I don’t see anything immoral in it.” Ten years later, Ben Gurion maintained his opposition to sharing Palestine with the Arabs by rejecting the UN partition plan because he believed it didn’t allocate at least the majority of Palestine to the Jewish state…** **In a speech delivered to his own Mapai Party on December 3, 1947, Ben-Gurion made his aims clear:** **There are 40 percent non-Jews in the areas allocated to the Jewish state. This composition is not a solid basis for a Jewish state. Only a state with 80 percent Jews is a viable state…** **The price: The future\_\_Like all Israelis who dare to tell the true story of what happened, Pappé was ostracized. He received death threats and was forced out of his job as a distinguished senior lecturer at the University of Haifa last summer. Citing an atmosphere of hate and bigotry, he decided to accept a job at Exeter University in England.** [http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Pappe\_Ilan/EthnCleansPales\_bookreview.html](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Pappe_Ilan/EthnCleansPales_bookreview.html) ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/199 "2009-11-17T17:10:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Damn right they did. One of the greatest achievements of the 20th Century, that was. > > What, I should be embarrassed about my country’s history? The hell with that. Yep, there’s a lot to be proud of! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/200 "2009-11-17T17:12:18Z")
Yes. Yes there is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=11)