# pro-Palestinian thread, part 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232 "2009-11-11T21:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/261 "2009-11-21T19:12:28Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Wow, I feel as if a tornado touched down on a sewage treatment plant and I’m caught in the middle of the shitstorm. Over 200 posts and you guys still haven’t solved this little Israel/Palestine problem? 😉 Come on I thought you were smarter than that! 😃 …etc… I don’t support his “shoot on sight” recommendation…and his post includes many other recommendations that Dopers on both sides of the argument may regard as impractical, if not crazy… But nevertheless, I would like to thank YogSosoth for attempting to drag this discussion into the future. 🙂 And he was ignored by those who prefer to debate what happened in 1948. Neither denounced nor supported. Cruel, fickle boards!!! ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/262 "2009-11-21T19:25:50Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I for one am shocked, totally shocked, that someone might have created a fictional narrative that allows him to justify hate against, what was it… “Israel, Judaism and Jews.” > > This is without precedent. I have it on good authority that _never_ happens. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/263 "2009-11-21T19:44:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, no - even a left-wing source like _Mother Jones_ says the IDF [Cite-a-roonie](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2003/09/death-rachel-corrie). > And I have an even lower opinion of people who play chicken with IDF bulldozers. ISTM that justice was done because pressure was brought to bear on Israel to abide by principles of justice and act. > > Which is why I asked for cites of Hamas doing the same. Why do you suppose the pressure is so one-sided, that Israel should do the right thing but Hamas and Hizbollah are not required to do the same? > > [ul][li]IDF sniper kills a civilian[/li][li]Clamor against Israeli disregard for human rights[/li][li]Investigation (after much pressure) and prison time for the soldier killing the civilian[/ul][/li]Contrasted with > [ul]Hamas kills civilians > [li]_crickets chirping_[/ul][/li]Regards, > Shodan Please don’t ask me to defend Hamas. I’m pro-Palestinian rights, but look elsewhere for the uncritical Kool-aid drinker who would back that movement. Is Mother Jones considered that left-wing anymore? They fired Michael Moore after all… Anyway, I will concede the _possibility_ (but not certainty) that the dozer driver did not see Corrie. Which brings up several other issues: the [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie#Corrie.27s_death_and_subsequent_controversy) article on the incident claims that normally, a bulldozer would have an IDF escort _precisely because it’s hard to see out of those things_. But the dozer didn’t have an escort that day because of the danger of Palestinian snipers. OK, fair enough. So, then, _why did the dozer have to be out working that day_, with the danger of snipers and such??? Even if you remove the possibility of malice, this was a monstrous cock-up. The wikipedia article also seems to give further support to the accounts of Corrie’s friends, including the possibility that she was looking right into the cab (and therefore, into the driver’s eyes). The Mother Jones article you cited also lambastes the Israeli government for its utter lack of remorse for the incident. I object very strenuously to the characterization of Corrie as a dumbass who essentially killed herself. “Playing chicken with IDF bulldozers”…hmmm…well, what about playing chicken with billy clubs and armed police? That’s what a couple of “morons” named Gandhi and King did, but they were fortunate enough to survive. Putting yourself into harm’s way as a form of protest has an old and honourable history, and it is often an effective tactic. Its practitioners should be lauded for their courage and moral stance, not derided as stupid. Now, of course, a bulldozer (or a tank) is a lot different from a line of cops with riot shields and clubs, but maybe Corrie and her friends weren’t used to facing off against bulldozers. Maybe they were more used to confronting troops and cops. But they felt the urgent need to do something right away, because for all they knew a pharmacist’s house was about to be demolished. How about the guy who stood in front of a Chinese tank? Want to nominate him for a Darwin Award? Or almost-award, since he survived. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/264 "2009-11-21T20:51:37Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > why did the dozer have to be out working that day, with the danger of snipers gee, on _that_ day, I dunno. Why should an army go to work _any_ day against terrorists? Maybe the whole army should take the day off from work every time they see an enemy sniper. Or maybe the guy who goes to work could be well enough shielded in his specially designed vehicle to get his job\* done despite the snipers. 'Cause, believe it or not, some countries like to bring their soldiers home alive. And if Ms Corrie wants to go to work on a day when there are terrorist snipers supporting her, maybe she should realize that she’s chosen a pretty dangerous profession. - the job, ya know,… of fighting terrorists. A nice, clean, 9 to 5 job where everybody wears a suit and tie. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/265 "2009-11-22T02:22:40Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > gee, on _that_ day, I dunno. > Why should an army go to work _any_ day against terrorists? > Maybe the whole army should take the day off from work every time they see an enemy sniper. > > Or maybe the guy who goes to work could be well enough shielded in his specially designed vehicle to get his job\* done despite the snipers. > > 'Cause, believe it or not, some countries like to bring their soldiers home alive. > And if Ms Corrie wants to go to work on a day when there are terrorist snipers supporting her, maybe she should realize that she’s chosen a pretty dangerous profession. > > - the job, ya know,… of fighting terrorists. A nice, clean, 9 to 5 job where everybody wears a suit and tie. Doesn’t answer my question. Why send a bulldozer driver out there and _not_ the army?? That could give the false impression that Israel’s dozer drivers have more guts for working in dangerous conditions than their soldiers…or that the dozer drivers are more _expendable_ than the soldiers…or that Israel’s material resources were stupidly misallocated to provide shielding for dozers instead of for APV’s. Which one of those scenarios is least offensive to the “Corrie was stupid” crowd? Also, please provide a cite to show that there were terrorist snipers operating in the area on that day. As well as a cite to show that the pharmacist, whose house Corrie was protecting, was a terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/266 "2009-11-22T02:49:26Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > Doesn’t answer my question. Why send a bulldozer driver out there and _not_ the army?? > > That could give the false impression that Israel’s dozer drivers have more guts for working in dangerous conditions than their soldiers…or that the dozer drivers are more _expendable_ than the soldiers…or that Israel’s material resources were stupidly misallocated to provide shielding for dozers instead of for APV’s. Which one of those scenarios is least offensive to the “Corrie was stupid” crowd? > > Also, please provide a cite to show that there were terrorist snipers operating in the area on that day. As well as a cite to show that the pharmacist, whose house Corrie was protecting, was a terrorist. Next time you face a sniper please call us so we can watch and Monday morning quarterback later. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/267 "2009-11-22T03:15:28Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > As well as a cite to show that the pharmacist, whose house Corrie was protecting, was a terrorist. He wasn’t. The houses were being demolished because they were too close to the Egyptian border/the road that goes to the checkpoint. They were being demolished as a protective measure. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/268 "2009-11-22T03:16:40Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > Also, please provide a cite to show that there were terrorist snipers operating in the area on that day. What, are snipers unionized or something? They’ve collectively bargained for days off? ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/269 "2009-11-22T11:55:59Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Next time you face a sniper please call us so we can watch and Monday morning quarterback later. This is not an answer. I repeat: where were the troops, who normally provide safeguards for demolition work, that day? ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/270 "2009-11-22T11:58:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > He wasn’t. The houses were being demolished because they were too close to the Egyptian border/the road that goes to the checkpoint. They were being demolished as a protective measure. This is a good answer, although I strongly disagree with the rationale that destroys people’s homes in the name of security. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/271 "2009-11-22T12:01:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What, are snipers unionized or something? They’ve collectively bargained for days off? This is an attempt to avoid giving an answer by being flippant and irrelevant. Let me rephrase: was there an actual threat from snipers that day, and if so why was there a bulldozer out there without an IDF escort? Come on, Dopers – only one out of three serious answers?? You can do better than that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/272 "2009-11-22T12:24:23Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > This is an attempt to avoid giving an answer by being flippant and irrelevant. Let me rephrase: was there an actual threat from snipers that day, and if so why was there a bulldozer out there without an IDF escort? I daresay if snipers had been known or suspected to be in the area any time over the previous few months, that constitutes a threat, and given that snipers move around, IDF escorts have to be mobile too and it’s impossible to cover _everybody_, so the guy in the armored bulldozer will have to get by with his established not-ineffective shielding. I don’t why “that day” is so significant, the whole point of sniping is defeated if it’s that predictable. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/273 "2009-11-22T20:17:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I daresay if snipers had been known or suspected to be in the area any time over the previous few months, that constitutes a threat, and given that snipers move around, IDF escorts have to be mobile too and it’s impossible to cover _everybody_, so the guy in the armored bulldozer will have to get by with his established not-ineffective shielding. > > I don’t why “that day” is so significant, the whole point of sniping is defeated if it’s that predictable. Better answer. Thank you. Still think the tragedy was caused by negligence. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/274 "2009-11-22T20:37:13Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > Better answer. Thank you. Still think the tragedy was caused by negligence. Well, that, and somebody lying down in front of a bulldozer. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/275 "2009-11-22T21:04:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, that, and somebody lying down in front of a bulldozer. Crouching at one point, but never lying down, according to one witness in the _MJ_ article cited by Shodan. The Wikipedia article quotes several witnesses who state that she had climbed to the top of the pile of earth, and that her head and shoulders were visible above the blade, so the driver should have seen her. The activists apparently thought the driver would stop, based on previous incidents: “They always stopped before.” Greatest probability: negligence (based on the IDF’s absence from the scene), with a lesser probability of malice (depending on whether the driver could see her, whether his head was turned backward as attested by some, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/276 "2009-11-22T21:21:39Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > The activists apparently thought the driver would stop, based on previous incidents: “They always stopped before.” It’s still a pretty dumb assumption to make. You’re standing in front of a 70 ton machine that can’t exactly stop on a dime. Don’t play chicken with a bulldozer. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/277 "2009-11-23T06:48:29Z")
Still hoping to get some reactions to YogSosoth’s recommendations. Remember, my OP specifically asked for recommendations for the future. So far YS is the one who has answered that call the most. Not that I agree with everything he said, but I think he was trying to be even-handed, and I would like to jump-start a more optimistic conversation. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > … > > First, both sides renounce any historic ties. You want to go back 60 years, the land belongs to the Palestinians. 80 years and it’s England’s. 1000 years and it’s the Muslims. 2000 years and it’s back to the Jews. I’m probably missing a lot of groups but the point is, many people have historic ties to the place and historic ties are irrelevent. Agreed, I guess. Nearly everyone’s land belonged to someone else, and the method of transfer wasn’t always legitimate. But we civilized residents of the 21st century no longer need to steal anyone’s land…right??? > [@](#): > > Palestine will have to give up their right to return. There simply is no getting rid of the millions of people who they consider stole their homes. None. And if they try to get rid of them, the Jews have nukes. I believe they’d rather use it than get pushed out of their land. So returning is absolutely out of the question. How about monetary compensation? Perhaps underwritten by the US, as Israel’s staunchest backer. Or how about resettling them in the West Bank? (Not Gaza though, too crowded.) > [@](#): > > On the other hand, Israel needs to do to all settlements in the West Bank like they did to some settlements a few years ago and that is forcibly remove the hardline religious nutcases who think they are going to claim a land by staying on it. Shoot them, kidnap them, grab them and throw them in a truck, it doesn’t matter. In fact, Israel needs to mistreat these people in order to show the world they are serious about it. So knock some heads together and remove them all. Give all of those settlements to the Palestinians. Um…remove the settlements, but be humane about it. The Gaza settlers got therapists when they had to leave, and I wouldn’t object to that for former West Bank settlers. > [@](#): > > Second, once they have the land, the Palestinians need to be able to do something with it. Israel needs to have a massive relief effort in the West Bank and Gaza to build up their infrastructure. Build settlements, but for the Palestinians instead. Build roads, schools, hospitals, everything. I very much agree that economic development is key to resolving this conflict. But I see it as more of an international effort. > [@](#): > > Third, regarding attacks. It is a given that some crazy people from both sides, but mostly the Palestinian side (yeah, they’re worse, get over it) will try to derail the peace process. In this Israel must stand firm and completely and utterly ignore them. This tit for tat back and forth will go on forever if one side refuses to be a part of the peace process while some on the other side are attacking. So accept that an ignore them. Build hospitals while under attack. Keep giving money to the Palestinian government even if some of it trickles into the hands of terrorists. Basically, do what you need to do to make Palestine a viable country without letting sporadic extremists obstruct the process. That doesn’t mean dont’ try to stop weapons shipments from the border. But realize that Palestine is a sovereign government now. If terrorist want to launch rockets from schools, then accept that the price of retaliation is higher than that of peace and leave them alone to launch their rockets. No Israeli tank or missile should ever be in Palestinian borders for any reason, even if asked (too much of a public relations debacle) This is the most daring recommendation, and it would be very difficult for the Israeli public and government to swallow. But you know what? I think it may be worth a try, and would pay off in the long run. It would be taking the supreme risk for peace. > [@](#): > > Fourth, tear down the walls and tell your population to take precautions. If you have to give everyone a car and stop the buses completely, then do so. The wall is a visible constant symbol of the oppression that the Palestinians feel, so as long as it is up, they will never be satisfied. Get over the silly obsession with temporary safety: this is about the long term survival of the state. If a dozen people a week have to be blown up, then so be it. Agreed, except for the last sentence. There are ways to stop the terrorist bombings without a wall. The Green Line will be an international border after all. > [@](#): > > Fifth, Palestine will have to make some tough choices. I don’t care about corruption, I care more about terrorism. Fatah should take over again, with force. They need to round up anyone even remotely associated with Hamas and kill them in the open. Mothers who celebrate their son’s martyrdom should be shot on sight. Basically, they need to completely eliminate the terrorist element from within their own society. Turn the horror of suicide bombings and beheadings onto their own people, but make damn sure you’re only doing it to Hamas and other terrorists. Make sure that people understand in no uncertain terms that anyone to attacks Israel will be punished with death. And all of this must have an Arabic face. No Jew should ever be seen as helping Fatah in this endeavor, Fatah needs to do this on their own. Disagree. Corruption within the Palestinian authority has exacerbated the problem. And Fatah has already proven quite adept at arresting and sometimes killing Hamas members. I hate Hamas, but I think the best way to combat religious extremism is with honest, good government, economic development, and a law enforcement apparatus that is honest, even-handed, ever vigilant and technologically up to snuff. Here is where the Western nations could help. This would sow seeds of hope among the young, hope that they too often find these days in apocalyptic religiosity. > [@](#): > > Sixth, while there is no right of return, Israel needs to voluntarily invite millions of Palestinians back into itself. Building mansions for them. Make sure they are living in better conditions than the average Israeli is now. In fact, give anyone who’s Muslim a mansion, or free cars, or whatever. Anything to placate them. It will show sincerity. A little extreme. Placate the Palestinians and show sincerity by restoring normality to the routines of life, going extended periods without military action and allowing free movement within Palestine. > [@](#): > > Seventh, because Israel is more powerful, it needs to show more remorse. Pass resolutions in its government to condemn its own creation. Trash their historical figures who was responsible for winning wars against Arabs and Muslims. Have a national holiday week devoted to the Palestinians. Consult Fatah on every foreign policy decision. Don’t just consult them though, give them a voice sometimes. Like, for ever 5 foreign policy decisions Israel makes, let Fatah make one for Israel. Unworkable and psychologically impossible. But I agree that Israel as the more powerful party should shoulder greater responsibility for restoring peace and justice. > [@](#): > > Eighth, Palestinians will have to get rid of any curriculum in schools that teach about 1948 and the times around it. Just completely suppress the history. Be like Stalin. It’s gone. Anybody who speaks about it in public gets arrested. Censor everything that has to do with it. In its place, teach that the country has had “difficult times” but is progressing. See above, psychologically impossible. All people need a history. But it would help to get rid of all school curriculum and media that demonizes Jews. > [@](#): > > Ninth, Israel needs to give some weapons to Palestine to make it feel like a real state. Like, half the tanks, half the fighters. Take some screws out of them if it makes you feel safer, but Israel needs to arm Palestine. If there’s a war, I’m sure the Jews will still win, so I’m not worried about some mythical destruction of Israel scenario. Yes, a Palestinian state would have to have self-defense capability, but I’m not sure the Israelis are the ones who should ensure that. Basically, a lot of these recommendations are for Israel to do stuff, whereas I think it’s Israel’s patron, the US, that should provide major support for a Palestinian state. > [@](#): > > Tenth(and remember these are completely unreasonable things that would never happen in real life), they need to throw a massive masquerade party, get thousands of Jews and thousands of Muslims into it, spike the punch, and hope that they all get pregnant and have a ton of mixed babies so that there will be thousands of families with relatives on both sides. 😃 As a product of mixed-race ancestry, I wholeheartedly agree that all the world’s peoples should make love, not war. 🙂 So…what do _you_ think? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/278 "2009-11-23T09:42:01Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > So…what do _you_ think? I think his recommendations weren’t practical, and were probably tongue in cheek. Here’s my reccomendation. Israel withdraws from the West Bank and forcibly removes all settlements, with the exception of Ariel, Efrat, Gush Etzion, Betar Ilit, and Ma’ale Edumim, which are to be annexed to Israel, along with such territory required to make the land contiguous. The rest of the security fence is constructed along the new border. No right of return, although, possibly, compensation to be offered to those who can prove that they or their immediate ancestors owned land in what is now Israel. The Palestinian government recognizes Israel’s right to exist, renounces violence, and takes immediate police or military action against any terrorist or millitant group. Palestinian textbooks and media to be censored to prevent anti-Israeli or anti-Semitic propaganda. An international committee, including representatives from the US, the EU, the Arab World, Israel, and the Palestinian state established to monitor compliance with the terms of the treaty. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/279 "2009-11-23T13:41:57Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > … > forcibly removes all settlements, with the exception of Ariel, Efrat, Gush Etzion, Betar Ilit, and Ma’ale Edumim, > … Why make these exceptions? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/280 "2009-11-23T15:22:17Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > Please don’t ask me to defend Hamas. I’m pro-Palestinian rights, but look elsewhere for the uncritical Kool-aid drinker who would back that movement. > > Is Mother Jones considered that left-wing anymore? They fired Michael Moore after all… > > Anyway, I will concede the _possibility_ (but not certainty) that the dozer driver did not see Corrie. Which brings up several other issues: the [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie#Corrie.27s_death_and_subsequent_controversy) article on the incident claims that normally, a bulldozer would have an IDF escort _precisely because it’s hard to see out of those things_. But the dozer didn’t have an escort that day because of the danger of Palestinian snipers. OK, fair enough. So, then, _why did the dozer have to be out working that day_, with the danger of snipers and such??? Even if you remove the possibility of malice, this was a monstrous cock-up. > > The wikipedia article also seems to give further support to the accounts of Corrie’s friends, including the possibility that she was looking right into the cab (and therefore, into the driver’s eyes). > > The Mother Jones article you cited also lambastes the Israeli government for its utter lack of remorse for the incident. > > I object very strenuously to the characterization of Corrie as a dumbass who essentially killed herself. “Playing chicken with IDF bulldozers”…hmmm…well, what about playing chicken with billy clubs and armed police? That’s what a couple of “morons” named Gandhi and King did, but they were fortunate enough to survive. > > Putting yourself into harm’s way as a form of protest has an old and honourable history, and it is often an effective tactic. Its practitioners should be lauded for their courage and moral stance, not derided as stupid. Now, of course, a bulldozer (or a tank) is a lot different from a line of cops with riot shields and clubs, but maybe Corrie and her friends weren’t used to facing off against bulldozers. Maybe they were more used to confronting troops and cops. But they felt the urgent need to do something right away, because for all they knew a pharmacist’s house was about to be demolished. > > How about the guy who stood in front of a Chinese tank? Want to nominate him for a Darwin Award? Or almost-award, since he survived. 🙂 Different situations call for different measures. Facing off against a riot cop is one thing. Playing chicken with a bulldozer is another. In my professional work, I’ve dealt with coroner jury proceedings concerning construction site accidents. What I learned from that is one simple lesson - don’t assume that the guy driving heavy equipment can see you. Intentionally putting yourself in the way of heavy equipment is more _stupid_ than heroic since your death, should it happen, is likely _meaningless_ - given that by its very nature it can’t necessarily be assigned to the “enemy” you are seeking to frustrate (in that it is unlikely, except in the clearest of cases, to be proven to be an act of malice on their part). To provide an example: say you disagree with some policies of a particular government. To protest, you decide to lie on some railway tracks on which supplies are shipped by that government. The train can’t stop in time even if it sees you, and you die. What exactly have you proved? Is your sacrifice the equivalent of MLK peacefully protesting for voter rights? I’d say not - the main difference is that the guy wielding a billy club is clearly _acting with knowledge of what he’s doing_. Their reaction is an example of what MLK was fighting against. The guy driving the train is in no different situation if he’s delivering death camp inmates than if he’s delivering Christmas packages to orphans - _in neither case can he stop_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=15)