# pro-Palestinian thread, part 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232 "2009-11-11T21:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/301 "2009-11-27T20:18:52Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > That’s rather the point of snipers\*. They don’t announce where they will be and when; a good sniper only announces he is there when he fires. > > \*Sniper in the military sense as opposed to any random small arms fire being described as sniper fire. Since snipers are apparently omni-present, and all-powerful, with the ability to pop up unexpectedly wherever they please…then _why_ have a policy of IDF escorts for bulldozers in the first place??? Did the IDF commanders just throw up their hands on the day of Corrie’s death, exclaiming, “Ah, snipers are so unpredictable, better to just forget about the policy”? Now, _that’s_ the _real_ Alice in Wonderland territory. Still waiting for a cite showing increased sniper danger around that locale and date. Isn’t anyone going to try?? ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/302 "2009-11-27T20:28:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > As long as you annex the villages along with the farms, it’s not a problem. You just give the people in those villages Israeli citizenship or residence, and life doesn’t change that much for them. I see a problem with that. The Palestinians in those villages and farms aren’t going to want to be part of an Israeli state (citizens or not) any more than the residents of Ariel would want to be part of a Palestinian state. I guess that’s the same problem that Palestinians in the Old City and Syrian residents of the Golan Heights are having. Those two areas are already headaches, so why exacerbate the situation by creating more “unwilling annexees”? At best, I would see the situation as a potential Northern Ireland, with Palestinians in the “Ariel corridor” perpetually fuming about being in the wrong state while their brothers in the rest of the West Bank, happy with their new independence, eventually adopt an attitude of “Those poor guys, I wish we could do something for them.” That’s a best-case scenario. At worst…well, again, it could be like Northern Ireland! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/303 "2009-11-27T21:28:09Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > Still waiting for a cite showing increased sniper danger around that locale and date. > > Isn’t anyone going to try?? What evidence would convince you? I mean, assuming someone puts in the effort to compile a list of sniper attacks, please define “around that locale and date”. Would a sniper attack a month before, ten miles away count as “danger”? If not, why not? This is apparently an important issue for you, so specifics are worthwhile. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/304 "2009-11-28T01:24:51Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > … > > FYI, I could put up dozens of organizations both Jewish and Israeli … fiercely condemning Israeli actions. Just two please? > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > … Pull up a Palestinian leader or group and you are more than likely to find … calls for **anti-semitic genocidal annihilation like that found in the very covenant of Hamas**. There is no such thing, as shown many times on this board. Why amongst the infinite world of evidence does this calumny subsist? It is hard to create monsters from normal people. Israel needs myths like this to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/305 "2009-11-28T02:09:57Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Just two please? > > There is no such thing, as shown many times on this board. Why amongst the infinite world of evidence does this calumny subsist? It is hard to create monsters from normal people. Israel needs myths like this to do so. Do you know of a Hamas Charter that _doesn’t_ mention Israel being attacked or obliterated or whatnot? It would be news to me. I eagerly await your link to such a document. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/306 "2009-11-28T02:36:46Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Just two please? > > There is no such thing, as shown many times on this board. Why amongst the infinite world of evidence does this calumny subsist? It is hard to create monsters from normal people. Israel needs myths like this to do so. Here, have fun: [http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp](http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp) [http://zope.gush-shalom.org/index\_en.html](http://zope.gush-shalom.org/index_en.html) > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Do you know of a Hamas Charter that _doesn’t_ mention Israel being attacked or obliterated or whatnot? It would be news to me. I eagerly await your link to such a document. Yeah, me too. The only calumny here is belief by Hamas that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is fact rather than fiction. And \*\*Sevastopol’s \*\*unwillingness to admit that Hamas leaders are not exactly nice people. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/307 "2009-11-28T23:56:33Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Just two please? I can name more than two. Political movements include Peace Now, as well as Gush Shalom, led by Uri Avnery (whom I consider a hero). In the 70’s there was the Mizrahim “Black Panthers” group. “Non-political” movements include the Peres Center for Peace, the National Census, Seeds of Peace, the Tami Steinmetz Center for Peace Research, and the Committee Against House Demolitions. Parties include Labor, Meretz-Yachad, and Hadash/Communist Party of Israel. And that’s just in Israel. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/308 "2009-11-29T00:07:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What evidence would convince you? I mean, assuming someone puts in the effort to compile a list of sniper attacks, please define “around that locale and date”. Would a sniper attack a month before, ten miles away count as “danger”? If not, why not? This is apparently an important issue for you, so specifics are worthwhile. OK, I’ll bite. Since the home at the center of the Corrie tragedy is described as being between Rafah and the Egyptian border, let’s take that as our area. Actually, let’s go further and take all of metropolitan Rafah. For the time window, let’s take an arbitrary period of two weeks before the tragedy. And since statistics are most useful when there is a control sample, please take care to compare the two-week-period in Rafah to the same two weeks in the rest of Gaza, and the same two weeks in Rafah the previous year (a statistical comparison often used for crime statistics). Happy hunting! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/309 "2009-11-29T00:10:29Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > The only calumny here is belief by Hamas that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is fact rather than fiction. And \*\*Sevastopol’s \*\*unwillingness to admit that Hamas leaders are not exactly nice people. Hamas sucks. Palestinian self-determination is cool. No contradiction. The Stern Gang sucked. Jewish self-determination was cool. No contradiction. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/310 "2009-11-29T00:28:10Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > is there any Arab country that has _Jews_ in its parliament? Well, Iran isn’t “Arab,” but they do have one Jewish representative in their parliament: > **[IRAN: Life of Jews Living in Iran](http://www.sephardicstudies.org/iran.html)** That is a pretty interesting article, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/311 "2009-11-29T00:31:50Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > take all of metropolitan Rafah. For the time window, let’s take an arbitrary period of two weeks before the tragedy. And since statistics are most useful when there is a control sample, please take care to compare the two-week-period in Rafah to the same two weeks in the rest of Gaza, and the same two weeks in Rafah the previous year […] > Happy hunting! Just so we’re clear here, can you please clarify what exactly the purpose is of creating a virtually impossible to fill demand in order to question a reasonable claim backed up by the general nature of the conflict as we’ve seen it for decades? What source do you believe such information would be in? The Journal of How Many Times IDF Troops Were Shot At, And on What Days, in Rafah, perhaps? Perhaps we should attempt to get our hands on the snipers’ logbooks and make sure that they got their time cards stamped by the Snipers’ Union that day? To say nothing about the methodological problems of using Gaza as a “control” or expecting military data to be collected, organized and published the same way that law enforcement operates. It reminds me a bit of the Troofer practice of Just Asking Questions when they absently mindedly wonder just how many pounds of concrete were in every floor, or what have you. Care to play straight? ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/312 "2009-11-29T00:33:14Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > However it is corrupted as it’s iterations require unqualified backing of Israel. As Israel is frequently a monstrosity or kind of war crime, Judaism is accordingly polluted. Starting as religion, it is made more and more to appear an evil cult. lie lie lie, all of it lies. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/313 "2009-11-29T00:34:00Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > Hamas sucks. Palestinian self-determination is cool. No contradiction. > > The Stern Gang sucked. Jewish self-determination was cool. No contradiction. Um, the Stern Gang was never the popularly elected Jewish government, so your analogy doesn’t hold up very well. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/314 "2009-11-29T02:09:12Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > Happy hunting! 🙂 Oh, I was just curious if you’d nail the goalposts down. Whether your critera can be met or not, I chalk up the so-called Corrie “tragedy” to personal stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/315 "2009-11-29T05:51:29Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > lie lie lie, all of it lies. This is a formal warning: you’re not allowed to call other posters liars in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/316 "2009-11-29T07:47:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is a formal warning: you’re not allowed to call other posters liars in Great Debates. He can call Judaism “polluted” but I can’t call him a liar. Will wonders never cease… Ok, how about I call him “moron” instead? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/317 "2009-11-29T07:48:39Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > He can call Judaism “polluted” but I can’t call him a liar. Will wonders never cease… > > Ok, how about I call him “moron” instead? You can’t do that either. You cannot insult other posters here unless you are posting in the BBQ Pit. The rule here is that you can attack the arguments but not the poster who makes them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/318 "2009-11-29T07:54:55Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > He can call Judaism “polluted” but I can’t call him a liar. Will wonders never cease… > > Ok, how about I call him “moron” instead? Only if you want to jeopardize your posting privileges by racking up a lot of Warnings in a short period. The point is that a lot of different perspectives can be aired in this forum, but when posters begin attacking each other, the possibility for discussion evaporates. Pointing out that a poster’s comments about a thrd party are clearly wrong is worthwhile discussion; calling posters names is useless. The issue of [accusations of lying have been deemed insulting and harmful to discussion](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448632) and are prohibited. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/319 "2009-11-29T08:05:25Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Only if you want to jeopardize your posting privileges by racking up a lot of Warnings in a short period. > > The point is that a lot of different perspectives can be aired in this forum, but when posters begin attacking each other, the possibility for discussion evaporates. > Pointing out that a poster’s comments about a thrd party are clearly wrong is worthwhile discussion; calling posters names is useless. The issue of [accusations of lying have been deemed insulting and harmful to discussion](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448632) and are prohibited. > > [/Moderating] Alright, alright. It was an emotional response to a perceived insult about something important to me. In the futute I will couch my responses in better terms. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/320 "2009-11-29T08:44:20Z")
Dude, don’t let \*\*Sev \*\*get to you. He \*really \*isn’t worth it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=17)