# pro-Palestinian thread, part 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232 "2009-11-11T21:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/321 "2009-11-29T22:00:29Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > What’s behind this is anti-semitism. Just consider the dynamic, **kidney**. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/322 "2009-12-02T14:06:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Do you know of a Hamas Charter that _doesn’t_ mention Israel being attacked or obliterated or whatnot? It would be news to me. I eagerly await your link to such a document. Why? We’re talking about “anti-semitic genocidal annihilation”. T’aint no such critter. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Here, have fun: > > [http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp](http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp) > > [http://zope.gush-shalom.org/index\_en.html](http://zope.gush-shalom.org/index_en.html) These are good, but marginal. [QUOTE=LavenderBlue] … The only calumny here is belief by Hamas that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is fact rather than fiction. And \*\*Sevastopol’s \*\*unwillingness to admit that Hamas leaders are not exactly nice people. [/QUOTE] In neither statement is evidence a consideration. Hardly any fun then. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/323 "2009-12-02T14:21:30Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Why? We’re talking about “anti-semitic genocidal annihilation”. T’aint no such critter. Yes, yes, yes; we should all just follow your illogic and prove we aren’t anti-semites by shooting Jews on sight. Of course if we were anti-semitic we’d umm… shoot Jews on sight? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/324 "2009-12-02T15:13:37Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Yes, yes, yes; we should all just follow your illogic and prove we aren’t anti-semites by shooting Jews on sight. Of course if we were anti-semitic we’d umm… shoot Jews on sight? You don’t see the subtle politics involved with sending one of your children into a group of Jews sitting in a cafe and setting off an explosive belt stuffed with shrapnel. Why anyone can be an apologist for Palestinians is beyond me. The use of terrorism to get their way has been going on for over 40 years. There clearly are not enough Palestinians that oppose that tactic to make it stop. Of course it may be that Palestinians are incapable of expressing the will of the majority, in which case having a Palestinian state is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/325 "2009-12-02T15:16:55Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Why? We’re talking about “anti-semitic genocidal annihilation”. T’aint no such critter. So because that actual phrase (“anti-semitic genocidal annihilation”) doesn’t appear, everything’s okay? There are plenty of examples of similar rhetoric in the Hamas character and other documents. I’d honestly like to see an example of a major Hamas policy document (or even a minor one) that has no mention of attacking Israel at all, including vague statements that don’t explicitly state it but whose meaning is obvious enough (i.e. “our goal is to secure a Greater Palestine as a Muslim state free of infidels”). ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/326 "2009-12-02T18:49:38Z")
We’ve tried this before though… if you really want a refresher I’d recommend saving time posting and perhaps folks can just attempt to nail jello to a wall. IIRC the standard suite of evasions goes something like: -“Yeah, well, they say that Jews are evil and behind the World Wars and form an evil conspiracy at the heart of a great many organizations, but that’s not anti-semitic because it’s ‘in the context of anti-zionism’.” Or -“Yeah, well, so Hamas directly and clearly voices their approval of a Koranic verse that calls for the extermination of the entire Jewish people, without a single survivor left over, and I’d go ballistic if Israel said the exact same thing about the Palestinians. But, really, Hamas’ endorsed Koranic verse uses metaphorical language about how even the natural environment will help Muslims murder Jews, so it belongs in Cafe Society and poor ol’ us just simply can’t puzzle out why Hamas would endorse and repeat such a Koranic verse.” Or -“Sure, Palestinian Media Watch chronicles primary sources in which Hamas/Fatah leadership directly and unequivocally call for genocide of Jews and/or destruction of Israel by violence. But that’s at PMW, so I’d prefer if people ignored facts I don’t like.” Or -“Okay, so Hamas clearly delineates between Israel, Judaism and Jews and clearly states they are bigoted/racist against each facet. But I will prefer to pretend that their problem is only with Israelis and, wait, what’s that? La la la la la la la la la!” Etc… Facts are difficult because they make obvious the agenda driven fiction that: “There are no genocidal ambitions in major Palestinian political circles, it’s all because the Jews/Israel/Zionists control the media that such lies are even still around!!!That people have the audacity to read the Hamas Charter itself and see my claims are full of shit just proves how evil Zionists are and how they all need to be murdered because they stole land.” [It’s old hat.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=356405) ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/327 "2009-12-02T23:25:52Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > Hamas sucks. Palestinian self-determination is cool. No contradiction. > > The Stern Gang sucked. Jewish self-determination was cool. No contradiction. When Palestinian self-determination takes the form of organizations like Hamas that remind one of the KKK I don’t find it very cool at all. Like (I would venture to state correctly) most Jews I would be more than happy to support a state for Palestinians provided it were not dedicated to the annihilation of Israel and freely welcomed Jews. I don’t see that happening right now if ever. Jews have been accused of being nothing more than apologists for Israel in this very thread (and hatred against them on those grounds justified on those grounds as well) while barely a word is uttered against Palestinian representatives who freely talk of murder and quote books that Hitler would have been proud to have written. Statements like those uttered by Hamas leaders and **Sevastopol** terrify many Jews and lead us to cling even closer to Israel in some ways. I hear lots of talk of the Arab street and the need to win hearts and minds. I leave wondering why appears to be very little similar effor to win Jewish hearts and minds; to convince reasonable liberal Jews like myself that the Muslim world does not sanction organized hatred against us. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/328 "2009-12-03T01:29:17Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Statements like those uttered by Hamas leaders […] terrify many Jews and lead us to cling even closer to Israel in some ways. This bears elaboration. Rabid anti-semitism, if anything, makes a great many Jews viscerally realize our status as Other in many places/political circles/nations/groups. And from that realization comes the quite natural realization of our potential vulnerability due to the often insane and dangerous rage that’s wielded against us for the most transparent of feigned reasons in nation after nation and time after time. The question that quite often gets asked, in internal dialogue, is “where is safe?” And decade after decade, despite Nazi aligned Palestinian religious/political leadership, not one but two attempts by combined Arab armies to exterminate the nation, and the continued fanatical violent racism of many Palestinians armed morally, financially and materially by nations who are quite willing to “fight to the last Palestinian”… Well, despite all that, Israel still serves as a promise of safe-haven. One of the best ways for violently racist folks to cut support away from Israel would, ironically, be to make the Jews feel welcomed and accepted, as if they have a home and aren’t guests in someone else’s nation. Joke’s on us I guess. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/329 "2009-12-03T05:38:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > This bears elaboration. > > Rabid anti-semitism, if anything, makes a great many Jews viscerally realize our status as Other in many places/political circles/nations/groups. > And from that realization comes the quite natural realization of our potential vulnerability due to the often insane and dangerous rage that’s wielded against us for the most transparent of feigned reasons in nation after nation and time after time. > > The question that quite often gets asked, in internal dialogue, is “where is safe?” And decade after decade, despite Nazi aligned Palestinian religious/political leadership, not one but two attempts by combined Arab armies to exterminate the nation, and the continued fanatical violent racism of many Palestinians armed morally, financially and materially by nations who are quite willing to “fight to the last Palestinian”… > > Well, despite all that, Israel still serves as a promise of safe-haven. One of the best ways for violently racist folks to cut support away from Israel would, ironically, be to make the Jews feel welcomed and accepted, as if they have a home and aren’t guests in someone else’s nation. Joke’s on us I guess. And why can’t the United States be that safe haven? Jews are an intrinsic part of the USA as we know it – actually, in many ways they _made_ the USA as we know it. Jews are safer, more comfortable, more accomplished and more celebrated in the US than anywhere else on Earth. Take a look at American accomplishments in any field – politics, the arts, culture, science, business, publishing – and you can’t look very far without running into somebody Jewish. Even Superman had two Jewish daddies. And Alfred E. Neuman had a half-Jewish daddy. “Put on your yarmulke, let’s celebrate etc. etc.” Therefore I would risk saying that Israel is not unique as a Jewish haven. It’s not even the most desirable Jewish haven. And perhaps it’s that realization that makes Israeli leaders insecure. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/330 "2009-12-03T05:48:37Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Just so we’re clear here, can you please clarify what exactly the purpose is of creating a virtually impossible to fill demand in order to question a reasonable claim backed up by the general nature of the conflict as we’ve seen it for decades? What source do you believe such information would be in? The Journal of How Many Times IDF Troops Were Shot At, And on What Days, in Rafah, perhaps? Perhaps we should attempt to get our hands on the snipers’ logbooks and make sure that they got their time cards stamped by the Snipers’ Union that day? > > To say nothing about the methodological problems of using Gaza as a “control” or expecting military data to be collected, organized and published the same way that law enforcement operates. > > It reminds me a bit of the Troofer practice of Just Asking Questions when they absently mindedly wonder just how many pounds of concrete were in every floor, or what have you. > > Care to play straight? Well, you asked for specific parameters, so I tried to provide them. Maybe you could come up with your own parameters if you don’t like mine. But, maybe you don’t have to do any research at all, because it goes back to this: according to the Wikipedia article, Israel has or at that time had a policy of having troops accompany bulldozers for safety’s sake. In this case, the troops were absent. The policy wasn’t followed. Why? Unless you can answer that question (and not with lame jokes about unionizing the all-powerful snipers), you _cannot refute my claim_ that the Israeli government is guilty of negligence at the very least in the death of Rachel Corrie. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/331 "2009-12-03T05:54:02Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > Um, the Stern Gang was never the popularly elected Jewish government, so your analogy doesn’t hold up very well. But Yitzhak Shamir, who helped plan the Stern Gang’s despicable assassination of Folke Bernadotte, was once the popularly elected leader of Israel; so my analogy does hold up a little better than you think. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/332 "2009-12-03T06:57:34Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > And why can’t the United States be that safe haven? > > Jews are an intrinsic part of the USA as we know it – actually, in many ways they _made_ the USA as we know it. Jews are safer, more comfortable, more accomplished and more celebrated in the US than anywhere else on Earth. All the things you say about the USA now, you could have said about Germany in 1930. Jews are safe in the US now. That doesn’t mean Jews will be safe in the US forever. As long as Jews are dependent on Gentile good will for safety, Jews will always be insecure. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/333 "2009-12-03T07:16:46Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > Well, you asked for specific parameters, so I tried to provide them. Maybe you could come up with your own parameters if you don’t like mine. > > But, maybe you don’t have to do any research at all, because it goes back to this: according to the Wikipedia article, Israel has or at that time had a policy of having troops accompany bulldozers for safety’s sake. In this case, the troops were absent. The policy wasn’t followed. Why? > > Unless you can answer that question (and not with lame jokes about unionizing the all-powerful snipers), you _cannot refute my claim_ that the Israeli government is guilty of negligence at the very least in the death of Rachel Corrie. Yes, the Israelis are at fault for not defending themselves against snipers and allowing someone to voluntarily stand in front of a bulldozer. Just today I apologized to the person who stole my wallet. If I had guarded it better he wouldn’t have stolen it and been put in jail. I’m still waiting for the slaves to apologize for causing the Civil War and Poland to apologize to the Nazis for being so easy to conquer. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/334 "2009-12-03T07:54:48Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > And why can’t the United States be that safe haven? > > Jews are an intrinsic part of the USA as we know it – actually, in many ways they _made_ the USA as we know it. Jews are safer, more comfortable, more accomplished and more celebrated in the US than anywhere else on Earth. Take a look at American accomplishments in any field – politics, the arts, culture, science, business, publishing – and you can’t look very far without running into somebody Jewish. Even Superman had two Jewish daddies. And Alfred E. Neuman had a half-Jewish daddy. “Put on your yarmulke, let’s celebrate etc. etc.” > > Therefore I would risk saying that Israel is not unique as a Jewish haven. It’s not even the most desirable Jewish haven. And perhaps it’s that realization that makes Israeli leaders insecure. It’s a moot point. You’re talking as if Israel needs some sort of “purpose”. Does France have a “purpose”? Does Japan? Israel is a country like any other; it doesn’t need a purpose to exist. The whole “haven” thing may have been the reason it was founded, it’s still an essential part of its national policy, but it’s in no way its _raison d’etre_. Israel’s right to exist derives from its existance - nothing else is required. So why should Israeli leaders feel insecure? You seem to think that Israel is some sort of “project” of world Jewry, and that Israelis are simply transplanted Long Islanders. Nothing could be further from the truth - we have our own culture, our own history and our own values, very little of which we share with our American cousins. They want to come live here, fine, but until now this is \*our \*country, not theirs. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/335 "2009-12-03T21:19:14Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > And why can’t the United States be that safe haven? I suppose if you don’t know about US history that might even seem reasonable. But it wasn’t all that long ago (and in some cases it hasn’t really ended) that exclusive organizations like country clubs and first rate universities either outright banned Jews or had a hard cap on Jewish enrollment. The Klan still operates, and Jews have often been their targets as well. David Duke’s sentiments are alive and well and parroted by a truly shockingly large number of people. As a test, google Duke’s ‘thoughts’ on Jewish control of the US and then open any past GD thread where the Jewish vote or AIPAC are mentioned and you can see the exact same rhetoric, sometime word for word. Many groups now proudly proclaim that America is a Christian nation, and that our law, school systems, etc… should be driven by that ‘fact’. Even now, it is perfectly acceptable for political discussions to turn into accusations of traitorous Dual Loyalty should any Jew dare to express an opinion about the US’ relationship with Israel that isn’t seen as ‘proper’ or ‘bias free’. There are, unfortunately, there are still a number of worrisome ongoing developments and a history of open discrimination and hatred that is not all that long passed. And the climate in the US could change as fast as it did in Europe. You see, even if you do not, you can guarantee that the Jewish people have a good understanding of history. For us, it’s a survival skill. > [@tclouie](#): > > Jews are safer, more comfortable, more accomplished and more celebrated in the US than anywhere else on Earth. Saying it won’t make it so. The fact that it’s false also tests its utility somewhat. > [@tclouie](#): > > Take a look at American accomplishments in any field – politics, the arts, culture, science, business, publishing – and you can’t look very far without running into somebody Jewish. And look at the situation with anything but a cursory and sophistry-based analysis, and you’ll see that Jews are accused of controlling the media/Hollywood, using the media/Hollywood for “Zionist propaganda”, using it to lower national morality and destroy Christian cultures/values, that Jews in politics are secretly more loyal to Israel than their own home (or that they have any loyalty to it, at all), etc, etc, etc. And simply to clear up your ignorance, you’ll find that Jewish contributions to German society, science, philosophy, culture, etc… weren’t exactly nuthin’ before the rise of the Third Reich. And as pointed out by others already, even if the US was a perfectly safe and reliable haven, it’s nonsensical to demand that a people who’ve been persecuted by the entire world for centuries should be happy with only one, or two for that matter. Especially when Jewish security in America is totally dependent on the majority’s good will. > [@tclouie](#): > > Well, you asked for specific parameters, so I tried to provide them. No I didn’t. And while I’m at it, no you didn’t. You purposefully crafted a burden of proof that is impossible to fill. If you don’t want to stop such debate tactics or at least explain why you’re using them, that’s your business. But let’s not pretend that impossible demands of proof fall within the sphere of good faith requests. > [@tclouie](#): > > But, maybe you don’t have to do any research at all, because it goes back to this: according to the Wikipedia article, Israel has or at that time had a policy of having troops accompany bulldozers for safety’s sake. In this case, the troops were absent. The policy wasn’t followed. Why? Again you are disingenuously asking questions that you already know the answer to and imposing an impossible burden of proof to dissuade you from your pre-judged position. You make the claim, the burden of proof is on you. So far all you’ve done is your best to hide your own lack of support by challenging others with these patently obvious dodges. The reason why is that the IDF knew/thought/believed/was wrong in feeling that there was an unacceptable risk to unarmored personnel due to snipers and that the armor of the Cat could shrug off small arms fire. You know this, because you’ve been discussing it for several posts now. Nor is “the Wikipedia article” a solid cite. If you have an actual source that’s referenced in Wikipedia you can present it, but “the Wiki says so!” is a supremely unconvincing argument. > [@tclouie](#): > > Unless you can answer that question (and not with lame jokes about unionizing the all-powerful snipers), you _cannot refute my claim_ that the Israeli government is guilty of negligence at the very least in the death of Rachel Corrie. What exactly are you on about? I need to answer an impossible question because you’ve committed the fallacy of shifting the burden of proof and if I cannot do the impossible, your fallacious claim stands unrefuted? For serious? No, you have not proven that sending a war vehicle into a war zone to carry out the task of prosecuting a war is “negligent” if they didn’t provide enough of a meatshield that any bigoted pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli activists were protected from their own _lethal stupidity_. You are playing silly games. We all know how the conflict has unfolded over decades. We know that their are snipers, and home explosives, and the fog of war, etc… If you want to question whether or not the Snipers’ Union has good records for that time period, that’s your game to play. Just don’t expect to fool many people who’re paying attention, is all I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/336 "2009-12-04T14:29:42Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > Alfred E. Neuman had a half-Jewish daddy. There’s a song in there somewhere. Let’s see… \*Alfred E. Neuman had a half-Jewish daddy A beach house on the Dead Sea Alfred left his home in East Jerusalem For some Long Island tea Get back, get back Get back to where you once belonged Get back, get back Get back to where you once belonged Get back, Jewboys Go home\* Needs work. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/337 "2009-12-04T16:54:45Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I think his recommendations weren’t practical, and were probably tongue in cheek. Here’s my reccomendation. Some of them were completely tongue-in-cheek, like #10, but some I thought weren’t half bad, if reworked to be a little less extreme. I don’t really think Fatah should shoot mothers in the head out in the open. In a backroom somewhere definitely 😉 Basically, some things are based on real life (removal of Jewish settlers in the West Bank) and some are things I think would help that nobody’s ever really tried before (giving Fatah a voice in Israel’s foreign policy and giving them tanks). ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/338 "2009-12-04T17:31:55Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > Still hoping to get some reactions to YogSosoth’s recommendations. Remember, my OP specifically asked for recommendations for the future. So far YS is the one who has answered that call the most. Not that I agree with everything he said, but I think he was trying to be even-handed, and I would like to jump-start a more optimistic conversation. Well, even-handed and amusing. I figured that if after 200 posts nobody really answered your question, I might as well do so, even if some of it is “impractical” 😃 > [@tclouie](#): > > Agreed, I guess. Nearly everyone’s land belonged to someone else, and the method of transfer wasn’t always legitimate. But we civilized residents of the 21st century no longer need to steal anyone’s land…right??? The problem, I see, and everyone knows, is that we cut that back and forth shit off right now, when it happens to benefit the Jews. Palestinians will want to “steal” it back just one more time, and THEN say “Ok, lets stop all the stealing”. That will never work. So if and when (hey I’m an optimist! :D) this plan is implemented, we have to stop the land swapping right there. > [@tclouie](#): > > How about monetary compensation? Perhaps underwritten by the US, as Israel’s staunchest backer. Or how about resettling them in the West Bank? (Not Gaza though, too crowded.) Money’s good, everybody loves money. As for the West Bank, that’s what the massive reconstruction effort will be for! > [@tclouie](#): > > Um…remove the settlements, but be humane about it. The Gaza settlers got therapists when they had to leave, and I wouldn’t object to that for former West Bank settlers. Some of them look like they need more than therapists. Like a kick in the face. Yes, even the kids. If we’re going to seriously look at long-term safety vs. short term security, then an IDF boot to little Tevyeh in a wheelchair is going to do a lot more for Palestinian support than it would do to piss off the ultra orthodox Jews. Those Jews would already be crying that the sky’s falling down simply because people are being removed. There’s no placating them. On the other hand, we still can placate the Palestinians, so tossing them a bone like this once in a while is worth it > [@tclouie](#): > > I very much agree that economic development is key to resolving this conflict. But I see it as more of an international effort. That would be good too. However, I would like the majority, or at least a large plurality, to come from Israel as a show of faith and a peace sign. > [@tclouie](#): > > This is the most daring recommendation, and it would be very difficult for the Israeli public and government to swallow. But you know what? I think it may be worth a try, and would pay off in the long run. It would be taking the supreme risk for peace. I thought the orgy was the most daring? 😉 The best part about this is that it’s doable. With the right amount of propaganda, every attack can be blamed on some rogue group who is anti-peace. They can even blame, rightly or wrongly, extremist Jewish groups for it. Most of us know, but cannot stomach, that attacks will be there even during peacetime, but that is no reason to abandon the peace. Its hard to think long-term when neighbors are being blown up, but if you don’t want your children’s neighbors to be blown up, the Israeli public will have to accept some casulties. > [@tclouie](#): > > Agreed, except for the last sentence. There are ways to stop the terrorist bombings without a wall. The Green Line will be an international border after all. If it doesn’t work though, they will have to accept deaths as a price. I’m hoping it could work, but doubt it. Its simply too easy to smuggle a bomb and blow up in a crowded place. > [@tclouie](#): > > Disagree. Corruption within the Palestinian authority has exacerbated the problem. And Fatah has already proven quite adept at arresting and sometimes killing Hamas members. I hate Hamas, but I think the best way to combat religious extremism is with honest, good government, economic development, and a law enforcement apparatus that is honest, even-handed, ever vigilant and technologically up to snuff. Here is where the Western nations could help. This would sow seeds of hope among the young, hope that they too often find these days in apocalyptic religiosity. Good government’s fine, but will take too long. It’s been 60 years, I think some harsher methods need to be implemented. Maybe this will be unnecessary if they implement suggetion #8. > [@tclouie](#): > > A little extreme. Placate the Palestinians and show sincerity by restoring normality to the routines of life, going extended periods without military action and allowing free movement within Palestine. That’ll work too. Yeah, the mansions thing is a little nuts. Would be nice though 😃 > [@tclouie](#): > > Unworkable and psychologically impossible. But I agree that Israel as the more powerful party should shoulder greater responsibility for restoring peace and justice. Well I don’t know about impossible. This can be all done in some backroom smoky parlor where I imagine people in power like to hang out. Apparently none of them are non-smokers. It would be easy too. Israel announces some foreign policy decisions in some official capacity. Jewy Jewenstein goes up to the microphone, announces some weapons purchases from the US, more international pressure to Iran, security being beefed up at the border, 50% discount on gefilte fish and matzo balls on Passover, and inexplicably the Prophet Mohammad’s birthday will now be a national holiday. Lets see them spot the fake one in that! > [@tclouie](#): > > See above, psychologically impossible. All people need a history. But it would help to get rid of all school curriculum and media that demonizes Jews. This, I believe, would do the most to help out long-term peace. Its not undoable, plenty of crazy regimes have suppressed their histories. All they have to do is replace it with a different history. > [@tclouie](#): > > Yes, a Palestinian state would have to have self-defense capability, but I’m not sure the Israelis are the ones who should ensure that. > > Basically, a lot of these recommendations are for Israel to do stuff, whereas I think it’s Israel’s patron, the US, that should provide major support for a Palestinian state. Like giving them aid and support, it would help if its coming from Israel. And the US too of course, we can get simply stop funding some bridge to nowhere and give the money to them to buy some Russian weapons or Chinese rations or something like that. > [@tclouie](#): > > As a product of mixed-race ancestry, I wholeheartedly agree that all the world’s peoples should make love, not war. 🙂 This would be the perfect time to think WITH your penis instead of trying to supress its desires. 😃 😉 😛 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/339 "2009-12-04T19:01:55Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Most of us know, but cannot stomach, that attacks will be there even during peacetime, but that is no reason to abandon the peace. Orwell would be proud. While we’re at it, shall we celebrate Bush’s Peace in Iraq? Sure, it was marked by lots of bombing and such, but really, why should we let war get in the way of declaring peace? We’ll just have to adopt the same point of view that many newspapers use: the word “ceasefire” means that Israel ceases to act while its enemies fire. If required we can simply reprint old articles with titles like “Israel responds to continuing Hamas rocket attacks, thereby endangering the ceasefire.” ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/340 "2009-12-04T19:24:28Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Orwell would be proud. > While we’re at it, shall we celebrate Bush’s Peace in Iraq? Sure, it was marked by lots of bombing and such, but really, why should we let war get in the way of declaring peace? > > We’ll just have to adopt the same point of view that many newspapers use: the word “ceasefire” means that Israel ceases to act while its enemies fire. If required we can simply reprint old articles with titles like “Israel responds to continuing Hamas rocket attacks, thereby endangering the ceasefire.” Who pissed in your breakfast today? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=18)