# pro-Palestinian thread, part 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232 "2009-11-11T21:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/441 "2009-12-18T19:23:48Z")
> [@Highly Persuasive Charles Freeman](#): > > I regret that my willingness to serve the new administration has ended by casting doubt on its ability to consider, let alone decide what policies might best serve the interests of the United States rather than those of a Lobby intent on enforcing the will and interests of a foreign government. We should always remember that there’s a big difference between a lobby and a Lobby. A lobby is a group that tries to influence government policy. A Lobby controls policy by being all-powerful, secretive, nefarious, dastardly, all-powerful and un-American. They think they’re fooling us, but you can always tell a lobby from a Lobby\*. \*unless the American press is intimidated into dropping the capital “L”\*\*. \*\*or by the horns and tail.. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/442 "2009-12-18T20:43:02Z")
Just remember Jack, the very fact that the US only gave lip service to AIPAC and Israeli wishes to have Jersualem be the official capital of Israel just shows that they control us, totally and completely. And the fact that virtually every university in the country has an active, vocal anti-Israel contingent (if not factulay), and that Walt and Mearsheimer and their errors were major news for some time and Jimmy Carter and his lies were major news just shows that the Jews control the US media and nobody can talk about such things. In fact, I think that we should take Saint Carter’s words into consideration here and remember that he said that he wrote a book in order to spark debate and when Dershowitz responded and challenged him to a debate that just proved that people were trying to stifle debate. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/443 "2009-12-18T20:50:35Z")
Just for laughs, I read some of the comments to that Salon article. Whoo-boy, some people are seriously paranoid and delusional. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/444 "2009-12-18T21:08:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > But lots of insinuation. > That’s like, even better. Lionel Hutz: We’ve got lots of supposition and hearsay. Those are… _kinds_ of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/445 "2009-12-18T21:21:52Z")
This is true. Also the fact that nobody in the administration came out and said that Israel made them do it just proves that Israel made them do it. Otherwise they would have admitted that Israel made them do it, thereby proving it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/446 "2009-12-18T21:52:46Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > . . . but seeing as Dick doesn’t have the ahem… balls to even try to back it up, Thiis sort of comment is unnecessary in this forum. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/447 "2009-12-18T21:57:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > .. . for those reading along who might have been fooled by Dick’s exercise in creative writing. This is also not helpful. Back off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/448 "2009-12-18T22:43:58Z")
Point taken. I would still contend, however, that if one finds an argument which has major premises like ‘you can’t trust Dennis Ross, after all he’s a Jew and a crazy Zionist and he wants to bomb Iran!’ that are later revealed to be rather far off the mark, that the entire argument then deserves much greater scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/449 "2009-12-18T23:13:23Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > So you stated falsely (a.k.a. “inexact phrasing”) that American media were suppressing the story in question. > > Now you’re retreating to the claim that “US media _commonly_ favor Israel”, since you haven’t shown that the American media reports painted Israel any more favorably over this case than the BBC. > > “I was wrong” just isn’t in your lexicon, is it? Let’s see, my stated position is - and I quote: " \*\*US media is commercial and can be leant on commerically. It has been and now commonly makes editorial choices that - embargo stories critical of Israel and - promote favourable ones.\*\* " There is some difficulty in seeing “US media _commonly_ favor Israel” as ‘retreating’ from that position. Secondly there have been no false statements, on my part. “Cannot” is inexact, but in fact serves well enough. As with **Bryan’s** quoted story, the stories you linked are edited in a way to favor the presentation of Israel. E.g of the 2 quotes I extracted from the BBC, only the facts of 1 appear in any of your 3 stories. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/450 "2009-12-18T23:16:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > … > > Fact is, if you want to make a claim that Jews control the media, prepare to have it challenged. Did anyone mention: - “Jews” ; or - “control” ? * * * As to why and how - **D D** addresses that sufficiently ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/451 "2009-12-18T23:23:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Lionel Hutz: We’ve got … hearsay. Those are… _kinds_ of evidence. Well strictly speaking … ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/452 "2009-12-18T23:39:43Z")
Obviously. It’s not just evil Jews controlling the US media, it’s evil Financial Jews. Er, I mean Zionists. Evil Financial Zionists. Nobody said the word “Jews”. So we can all assume that Sevastopol and Dick are talking about the legion of Israeli Zoroastrians who control the US media via economic domination. Damn those Zoroastrians!!!\* …something must be done. \* ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/453 "2009-12-18T23:51:37Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Let’s see, my stated position is - and I quote: > > " \*\*US media is commercial and can be leant on commerically. It has been and now commonly makes editorial choices that > > - embargo stories critical of Israel and > - promote favourable ones.\*\* " Your claiming it is so does not constitute evidence. The story you cited as proof of an “embargo” has in fact been covered just as comprehensively in American news media as in the BBC example you cited. You seem to place great weight on the BBC story containing an allusion to the terrorist allegedly seeking revenge for terrorist acts committed against Israel, a motivation supposedly not alluded to in American media. Whether or not this is the case, it would constitute at best a minor facet of the story. Dipshits who commit terrorist acts in the Mideast are always gloating about having “revenge” for prior acts, as if anyone but psychopathic morons is keeping score. I suppose some such morons might consider a revenge motive as “justification” for the accused Israeli’s acts, so the BBC story arguably portrays him in a _more_ favorable light than the American accounts I linked to, where he is portrayed as a violent, bigoted extremist. So - your example of American news media “embargoing” the story on orders from their Secret Masters is pathetic. Better luck next time. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/454 "2009-12-19T00:21:55Z")
To hell with the media. I can’t even control the damned cat. Would anyone like a slightly used quilt that he confused with the litter box? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/455 "2009-12-19T01:13:12Z")
I R in yur countre, controllin yur doodz! ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/456 "2009-12-19T01:31:34Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Your claiming it is so does not constitute evidence. > > The story you cited as proof of an “embargo” has in fact been covered just as comprehensively in American news media as in the BBC example you cited. You seem to place great weight on the BBC story containing an allusion to the terrorist allegedly seeking revenge for terrorist acts committed against Israel, a motivation supposedly not alluded to in American media. Whether or not this is the case, it would constitute at best a minor facet of the story. … The relevant text: > [@](#): > > During questioning, Mr Teitel confessed to several crimes, saying he had emigrated to Israel to carry out attacks against Palestinians as revenge for suicide bombings which killed Israeli citizens, … Omitted from US coverage. A ‘minor facet’? Looters, often termed ‘Settlers’, are the issue. How to sanction them? The US stories omit key elements going to the character of such an individual. These are editorial decisions which bias the public debate by omission of relevant facts. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/457 "2009-12-19T01:56:34Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > The relevant text: > > > [@](#): > > > > During questioning, Mr Teitel confessed to several crimes, saying he had emigrated to Israel to carry out attacks against Palestinians as revenge for suicide bombings which killed Israeli citizens > > Omitted from US coverage. A ‘minor facet’? As it turns out, an _invisible_ facet, since it wasn’t omitted from U.S. coverage (I didn’t see it originally in my U.S. links, but [lo and behold](http://abcnews.go.com/International/jewish-terror-arrest-shocks-israel/story?id=8973793)): _“Teitel is accused of murdering two Palestinians in separate attacks in 1997 while he was visiting Israel and, according to the police, **acting out of revenge for Palestinian suicide attacks**.”_ (bolding added for reading comprehension purposes). So - ABC news, for one, identifies Teitel as an Israeli settler who originally emigrated from the U.S. with smuggled arms, and who allegedly had a revenge motive. Your accusation of a U.S. media “embargo” on this story is even more pathetic than it originally seemed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/458 "2009-12-19T02:08:24Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Looters, often termed ‘Settlers’, are the issue. Well, one issue. Another issue, at least ijn this thread, would be the abuse of the language that you are employing to make snide and dishonestly implied comments. I have been opposed to Israeli settlement of the West Bank since 1969 or so, but I do not go around picking hateful words and using them in ways that are not only misleading, but outside any meaning that they hold in the English language. I am sure thaty you have some convoluted explanation by which you rationalize your identification of the settlers with “looters,” but all that usage does in this forum is identify you as a polemicist who has no intention of engaging in a civil or informed discussion. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/459 "2009-12-19T02:29:58Z")
Just to add a few bits to that otherwise excellent post Tom, I’d like to point out that even Israel’s most strident anti-settlement organizations have found that the clear majority of land that the settlements are built on was never privately owned by the Palestinians. Moreover, [the Ottoman land codes](http://books.google.com/books?id=hpvnNILnO3kC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=mulk+miri&source=bl&ots=znmeFCBtTh&sig=nAfLmSyRHlueVSfMrZFGBdvfbZs&hl=en&ei=aTEsS73eG4-WtgfxtYGUCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=mulk%20miri&f=false) are quite a bit more complicated than Dick and Sevastopol would claim by talking about how all the land is/was/whatever “Palestinian/Arab/Muslim Land”. What’s more, even Hamas itself states that the area is a Waqf due to taking it by force. [ > [@](#): > > The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Muslim generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Muslim generations till Judgement Day? > > This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Muslims have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Muslims consecrated these lands to Muslim generations till the Day of Judgement. > > It happened like this: When the leaders of the Islamic armies conquered Syria and Iraq, they sent to the Caliph of the Muslims, Umar bin-el-Khatab, asking for his advice concerning the conquered land - whether they should divide it among the soldiers, or leave it for its owners, or what? After consultations and discussions between the Caliph of the Muslims, Omar bin-el-Khatab and companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, it was decided that the land should be left with its owners who could benefit by its fruit. As for the real ownership of the land and the land itself, it should be consecrated for Muslim generations till Judgement Day. Those who are on the land, are there only to benefit from its fruit. This Waqf remains as long as earth and heaven remain. Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void. ]([Hamas Charter](http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm)) While it goes without saying (although it’ll probably unfortunately need to be said), all settlement construction must stop, and the very instant that a credible partner for peace arises among Palestinian leadership (and Fatah may yet fill that role) that Israel should aggressively negotiate for a compromise that ensures equitable land, water, agricultural and economic rights, along with peace and security, for both peoples. All that being said, thanks for pointing out the nonsense about “looters should be shot on sight!” in a manner more… diplomatic than I’d have managed. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/460 "2009-12-19T03:52:36Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Did anyone mention: > > - “Jews” ; or > > - “control” ? Well, if media editors control what their media outlets promulgate, and they routinely suppress stories that cast Israel in a bad light, who’s controlling the editors? And if you prefer, I’ll read your argument as about how “Israel” (not “Jews”) controls the American media. It’s still unsupported. > [@](#): > > As to why and how - **D D** addresses that sufficiently As far as I can tell, he’s talking about a political appointee. Even granting for the sake of argument that Israel was instrumental in getting him tossed, what’s the connection to CNN and American media generally? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=24)