# pro-Palestinian thread, part 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232 "2009-11-11T21:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/461 "2009-12-19T04:25:04Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, one issue. Another issue, at least ijn this thread, would be the abuse of the language that you are employing to make snide and dishonestly implied comments. > > I have been opposed to Israeli settlement of the West Bank since 1969 or so, but I do not go around picking hateful words and using them in ways that are not only misleading, but outside any meaning that they hold in the English language. > I am sure thaty you have some convoluted explanation by which you rationalize your identification of the settlers with “looters,” but all that usage does in this forum is identify you as a polemicist who has no intention of engaging in a civil or informed discussion. It is always uplifting to take on the role of educator. Likewise to learn at any age, no doubt: [Looting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looting) > [@](#): > > The Hague Convention of 1907 and the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, both explicitly ban “pillage” by hostile armies. a common way to avoid this is to establish Custodian of Enemy Property, which handle the property until it can be returned. [Pillage](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pillage) > [@](#): > > … > 1 : the act of looting or plundering especially in war… ‘Pillagers’ is an archaic word and not preferred. > [@](#): > > Looters may be summarily shot by the police, army, or property owners. [Property during war/occupation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custodian_of_Enemy_Property) > [@](#): > > In order to avoid this war crime, occupation armies have created the role of Custodian of Enemy Property. After the war, all unclaimed \*\*property and land \*\*that belongs to the enemy state or refugees, move to the ownership of this custodian, which manage it until its legal status is determined, by peace or cease fire agreement, or by returning the property to its previous owner. _emphasis added_ See, land. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/462 "2009-12-19T04:36:36Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am sure that you have some convoluted explanation by which you rationalize your identification of the settlers with “looters,” Prescient… ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/463 "2009-12-19T04:37:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, if media editors control what their media outlets promulgate, and they routinely suppress stories that cast Israel in a bad light, who’s controlling the editors? > > And if you prefer, I’ll read your argument as about how “Israel” (not “Jews”) controls the American media. It’s still unsupported. Helpful if you also concede no-one has ever said “controls”. In fact, I advise you to read the precipitating post of mine. You have badly misstated the argument. The argument addresses what editorial choices occur. Saying nothing about the factors affecting those choices, beyond ‘commercial’ and ‘leant on’. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > As far as I can tell, he’s talking about a political appointee. Even granting for the sake of argument that Israel was instrumental in getting him tossed, what’s the connection to CNN and American media generally? See above. I do not have an argument as to the mechanism. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/464 "2009-12-19T04:40:06Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Prescient… They are looters. Easy. Really any wrath is due to those who promote the euphemism ‘settlers’, almost as if they are, in some tiny sense’ legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/465 "2009-12-19T04:46:36Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Prescient… And, of course, even the evasion is cherrypipcked. (And from an uncited WIki, what’s more). Gee, I wonder why someone would choose only part of the quote so as to obfuscate its actual meaning. > [@](#): > > In many countries, even in Western democracies that otherwise ban the death penalty, extraordinary measures may be taken against looters, during times of crisis. Looters may be summarily shot by the police, army, or property owners.[citation needed] Extraordinary measures, combined with an impressive show of force, help to discourage looting and to disperse crowds that would otherwise find a normal show of force non-threatening.[citation needed] This is also common police practice in discouraging potential riots – which are often associated with looting – from escalating.[citation needed] Emphasis, context, mine. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/466 "2009-12-19T04:47:40Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Really any wrath is due to those who promote the euphemism ‘settlers’, almost as if they are, in some tiny sense’ legitimate. Looters come in, take stuff, and leave. Settlers come in, build stuff, and stay. They’re clearly doing the latter. This settlement may or may not conform to the international customs and laws, it may or may not be moral, it may or may not be wise, but it’s clearly settlement. The people in question are building permanent structures with the intent of living on the land. That’s settlement. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/467 "2009-12-19T04:53:45Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > As it turns out, an _invisible_ facet, since it wasn’t omitted from U.S. coverage (I didn’t see it originally in my U.S. links, but [lo and behold](http://abcnews.go.com/International/jewish-terror-arrest-shocks-israel/story?id=8973793)): > > _“Teitel is accused of murdering two Palestinians in separate attacks in 1997 while he was visiting Israel and, according to the police, **acting out of revenge for Palestinian suicide attacks**.”_ (bolding added for reading comprehension purposes). > > So - ABC news, for one, identifies Teitel as an Israeli settler who originally emigrated from the U.S. with smuggled arms, and who allegedly had a revenge motive. > … What we are discussing is editorial choices. I agree it is a reasonable position that this particular story is not embargoed. The ABC story differs in its editorial choice. One that is key. It omits: “\* … emigrated to Israel to carry out attacks against Palestinians…\*” or any words which would likewise show the purpose driving the emigration. The very quote I first identified. ABC edits this statement, slanting the current issue. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/468 "2009-12-19T04:56:05Z")
Is this the point at which someone uses a clue-by-four to note the fact that by these same… logic, each and every Arab in the Levant is a looter who should be shot on sight, to the last man woman and child? So if this argument is honestly held, Sevastopol has just come out in support of the genocide of the entire Palestinian people. I guess if Sevastopol honestly believed that Bryan saying that Jordan should help take a more active role in the peace process and compensating Palestinians was a call for genocide, then Sevastopol himself saying that conquering somewhere and moving in means that even one’s descendants can be killed means that he whole heartedly supports exterminating every last Palestinian. What, no? Gee… I wonder why the double standard? I blame the Zoroastrians who control the US media. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/469 "2009-12-19T04:56:34Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Looters come in, take stuff, and leave. Settlers come in, build stuff, and stay. They’re clearly doing the latter. This settlement may or may not conform to the international customs and laws, it may or may not be moral, it may or may not be wise, but it’s clearly settlement. The people in question are building permanent structures with the intent of living on the land. That’s settlement. And it is looting. It is not either or, as you posit. If you really prefer, consider them to be “pillagers” in your own mind. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/470 "2009-12-19T05:14:09Z")
Sunlight, best disinfectant, yadda yadda. Like I said, even the most far reaching claims confirm that [roughly 60% of the settlements are, yep, not on Palestinian land at all.](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/790748.html) I suppose that we might also mention the case of Hebron, a fairly sizable Jewish community that was virtually wiped out largely due to Arab riots instigated and organized by the Nazi-aligned Grand Mufti. Since we all know that Sevastopol’s position is not a rationalization, we know that he will immediately and clearly, without evasion or weaseling, endorse the position that the IDF should round up all the Arabs on land that Jews owned and shoot them. And as he’s argued in the past, they can certainly start with pregnant mothers and their children. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/471 "2009-12-19T05:21:02Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > people shoud (sic) quote my posts more often Happy to oblige. > [@Sevastopol](#): > > US media is commercial and can be leant on commerically. It has been and now commonly makes editorial choices that > > - embargo stories critical of Israel and > - promote favourable ones. > > E.g. Americans cannot see stories like (the BBC story about the Israeli settler accused of killings of Palestinians). So after it’s repeatedly demonstrated to you that stories like that _have_ in fact been readily available in major American news media, that your claims of “embargo” are ludicrous, and that even the particular language in the BBC story that you claimed was missing from American news stories _did_ in fact appear in the [abcnews.com](http://abcnews.com) account, you now pretend we were talking about something else entirely. > [@Sevastopol](#): > > What we are discussing is editorial choices. I agree it is a reasonable position that this particular story is not embargoed. I can see the latter statement must have been painful for you. Apparently it was not enough to warrant a clear admission that the lack of a U.S. news embargo is not only a _reasonable_ position, it is the _correct_ one. And as I expected, you’ve painted yourself into a corner where the only shred left to cling to is that no one has demonstrated a U.S. media account of the affair that recapitulates _word for word_ the BBC story, and that therefore one must conclude that unseen puppet hands are controlling American news sources to prevent criticism of Israel. Beyond pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/472 "2009-12-19T05:24:11Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Beyond pathetic. Jack, try to be honest here. We all recognize that Zoroastrians are sneaky and clever enough to totally hide their control of the US. Asking for proof just shows how dishonest and dishonorable you are. Remember Gaugamela! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/473 "2009-12-19T07:29:08Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > And it is looting. It is not either or, as you posit. > > If you really prefer, consider them to be “pillagers” in your own mind. It’s neither looting nor pillaging, except by some ideosyncratic definition that only you use. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/474 "2009-12-19T12:36:09Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Helpful if you also concede no-one has ever said “controls”. > > In fact, I advise you to read the precipitating post of mine. You have badly misstated the argument. The argument addresses what editorial choices occur. Saying nothing about the factors affecting those choices, beyond ‘commercial’ and ‘leant on’. > > … > > See above. I do not have an argument as to the mechanism. If “leaning on” doesn’t cause “control”, then what harm is it? Your argument, such as it is, is that Israel has an effect that isn’t quite control, and although you have no clear statement on how this effect occurs, it is indeed obvious and significant and, in your earlier words, explains why Americans " cannot see" certain stories. Seems to me something capable of leaning on something else and having this much influence is indeed controlling it. That you didn’t specifically say “control” is irrelevant. Besides, if “commercial” interests are also in play, than I’d wager that Wal\*Mart has a far greater influence than Israel, since they have more advertising revenue to throw around. How much, if any, “commercial” influence does Israel have? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/475 "2009-12-19T14:49:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That you didn’t specifically say “control” is irrelevant. Actually, that he won’t come out and say what his argument means and instead talks about control without saying “control” (and uses that as some sort of defense) and that he merely insinuates this evil shadowy, organized control of a foreign nation but won’t even suggest how such a thing is possible is quite relevant. Obviously, Sevastopol subscribes to certain historically popular claims about the evil of the Zoroastrians as a people. It’s not that Israel, the Zoroastrian State itself has vast commercial influence, it’s that, totally innocently and filled with the milk of human kindness, Sevastopol is echoing very old slurs about how Zoroastrians control the media and the economy for their own evil ends, pressing and cruelly dominating the good and noble people of the world and sticking their big hooked noses in where they don’t belong. That this is accomplished with maximum weasel language and insinuation is simply coincidence. In fact, anybody who disagrees does so because _they_ are the ones who hate Zoroastrians. Not that Sevastopol even knows that the looters are Zoroastrians, but anybody who disagrees with him obviously is racist against Zoroastrians. Just like he justifies the murder of Zoroastrians by calling them looters while going to great lengths to justify the same ‘looting’ when the Macedonians engage in it, to the point of arguing that there is no intent of genocide or ethnic cleansing when some of the Macedonians explicitly claim that the land is theirs because they took it from other owners via force and they will rule the entire territory, in perpetuity, because they consecrated it to the Olympian Pantheon and those damn Zoroastrians had just better get used to not owning property and being ruled by a theocratic Olympian state. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/476 "2009-12-19T16:46:33Z")
Well, I figure at heart the “media is being controlled/leaned on/influenced” is an excuse people come up with to explain why their views are not universally, or even widely, held. If the American public _isn’t_ on the Palestinian side, I gather, it’s because of a determined censorship effort and not because the American people are unsympathetic to people who send suicide bombers into discos and pizza parlors. Similarly, those who think the American media is biased left are using that as an excuse to explain why not everybody is eager to restore the social order of the 1950s. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/477 "2009-12-19T16:58:17Z")
Could be. That was much the same idea behind Walt and Mearsheimer’s claims of an evil Lobby (made up of groups who in actually hold different agendas and often work at cross purposes or even oppose each other). They figured that their subjective opinion was so obviously correct that the only way that everybody didn’t agree with them was that some chicanery was going on. Of course, while that might sometimes be the most parsimonious explanation, having it compounded by several other… odd claims and beliefs makes a simple lack of critical thinking and absurd subjectivity less and less likely. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/478 "2009-12-21T07:25:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, I figure at heart the “media is being controlled/leaned on/influenced” is an excuse people come up with to explain why their views are not universally, or even widely, held. … This misses the context. A discussion between \*\* D D\*\* and I on the curious fact that the US polity alone is far more tolerant of Israeli atrocities that anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/479 "2009-12-21T07:32:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If “leaning on” doesn’t cause “control”, then what harm is it? Your argument, such as it is, is that Israel has an effect that isn’t quite control, and although you have no clear statement on how this effect occurs, it is indeed obvious and significant and, in your earlier words, explains why Americans " cannot see" certain stories. Similarly, you are misconstruing the argument. It has nothing to do with who is doing the heavying. The US media is leant upon, or ‘chilled’ in terms of discussing the merits and demerits of policy re : Israel. This is an uncontroversial statement, is it not? Secondly, ‘control’ while happily reminiscent of anti-semitic myths that warm many a heart and spleen, is at the extreme end of a spectrum, where the argument places the level of influence towards the other extreme. Do US publications receive their orders in dictatation on an hourly basis regarding the Superbowl coverage? No. Are they experiencing a ‘chillling effect’ where stories inquiring the conduct of Israel’s policy arise. Yes they are. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/480 "2009-12-21T07:34:54Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s neither looting nor pillaging, except by some ideosyncratic definition that only you use. No, it is yourself that poses land as a special and distinct class of property. Conduct that in every other respect is plain looting becomes something else where the property is immobile. There is no reason in principle to accept any such difference exists. Mobile property of land; it is all looting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=25)