# pro-Palestinian thread, part 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232 "2009-11-11T21:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/41 "2009-11-12T15:58:49Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > As an opponent of violence, my instinctual answer to your question would be, “no, violence does not improve anyone’s lot.” But an argument I have sometimes heard, which I find hard to refute, is, “When the Palestinians are peaceful, everybody ignores them. They can only get attention by killing people.” Is that statement objectively true or false? If I have to choose, I’d go with false. There are indeed non-violent ways to get international attention, though the potential for violence is clearly a useful tool in negotiation. A fair comparison at this point is comparing the West Bank and Gaza - which is showing more economic improvement and which is expressing more violence toward Israel? Are these things positively correlated, negatively correlated or uncorrelated? It was my understanding that Fatah (in the West Bank) and Hamas (in Gaza) had slightly different approaches to Israel. Whose is working better? Vague notions of having to fight to liberty and all are fine, but some real-world examples would be nice. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/42 "2009-11-12T16:00:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > A law with no sovereign power to enforce it is a mere suggestion. Ah, old Hobbes again: _Covenants without the sword are but words_. The distinction here, I’d suggest, is that Israel _signed a treaty_ promising to uphold such a covenant, which was not simply voted in by a majority of the General Assembly, but considered in depth by learned, independent judges. That is rather different to some bunch of lawyers in Holland declaring out of the blue what was what. I don’t know why Israel doesn’t just withdraw its signature from the UN Charter, actually. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/43 "2009-11-12T16:01:37Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Israel is the only country in the Middle East with any semblance of a democracy or any kind of progressive culture; it’s the only place where you can have a gay pride parade down a major street in a major city (try doing that in Riyadh or Tehran) and hell, they have Arabs on the Israeli parliament (is there any Arab country that has _Jews_ in its parliament?) Not Arabs, but the Iranian parliament has one seat reserved for a Jewish rep. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/44 "2009-11-12T16:06:38Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I have never even seen Muslims in America protesting against the abuses of _Muslims_ in Islamic countries, let alone the abuse of anyone else. Come to DC then. Lots of demonstrations by Iranian groups regarding the oppression there. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Are there any “Irish Catholics Against the IRA” groups? What would you call the SDLP then? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/45 "2009-11-12T16:08:34Z")
> [@The\_Bith\_Shuffle](#): > > The Palestinians are, by and large, religious fundamentalists and extreme bigots by American standards. And Americans are, by and large, religious fundamentalist and extreme bigots by _my_ standards. What’s that prove? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/46 "2009-11-12T16:12:11Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Ah, old Hobbes again: _Covenants without the sword are but words_. The distinction here, I’d suggest, is that Israel _signed a treaty_ promising to uphold such a covenant. That is rather different to some bunch of lawyers in Holland declaring out of the blue what was what. I don’t know why Israel doesn’t just withdraw its signature from the UN Charter, actually. I don’t see what difference it would make. At one point the UN general council declared that Zionism was (uniquely for any nationalism) racism. Did that mean that Israel should have admitted it was a racist entity and disbanded itself, or cut itself off from the UN (which is admittedly a useful forum for some purposes)? It isn’t much surprise that it did neither, nor does that situation necessarily reflect badly on Israel - more on those member countries who use the UN forum for such nakedly and one-sidedly partisan purposes. What this situation has done, is remove whatever moral force there may be to UN pronouncements on the issue. The UN declaring Israeli actions “illegal” now has very little effect, for which the UN members who have so egregiously abused and manipulated the UN organs to their own advantage have no-one but themselves to blame. Every contract signed under _domestic_ law comes with an implied term - that the other party will enact the requirements of that contract “in good faith”. The UN Member states have not carried out the functions of the UN Charter in good faith towards Israel, and the fault is not Israel’s. Which isn’t of course to say that Israel is without faults. Far from it. What it is to say, is that a UN pronouncement of Israeli faults has very little persuasive or moral power. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/47 "2009-11-12T16:20:04Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > At one point the UN general council declared that Zionism was (uniquely for any nationalism) racism. Did that mean that Israel should have admitted it was a racist entity and disbanded itself, or cut itself off from the UN (which is admittedly a useful forum for some purposes)? Again, this isn’t the General Assembly voting that the wall be declared illegal, it is the independent judges of the Intenational Court of Justice _deciding_, after many months of rigorous legal consideration, that the wall constitutes a grave breach of promises Israel has explicitly made. If Israel were merely to explicitly _retract_ those promises, the wall would no longer be illegal. I don’t understand why Israel doesn’t just go ahead and do this. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/48 "2009-11-12T16:43:15Z")
Ludovic: > [@](#): > > When they annexed the West Bank they definitely should have given the Palestinians full citizenship. They never annexed the West Bank. The only (post-war of independence) conquered areas that Israel annexed are East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/49 "2009-11-12T16:46:34Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Again, this isn’t the General Assembly voting that the wall be declared illegal, it is the independent judges of the Intenational Court of Justice _deciding_, after many months of rigorous legal consideration, that the wall constitutes a grave breach of promises Israel has explicitly made. If Israel were merely to explicitly _retract_ those promises, the wall would no longer be illegal. I don’t understand why Israel doesn’t just go ahead and do this. It’s a General Assembly Advisory Proceeding, meaning it is a “question” submitted to the Court for review - by the General Assembly. [http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?p1=3&p2=4&k=5a&case=131&code=mwp&p3=0](http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?p1=3&p2=4&k=5a&case=131&code=mwp&p3=0) From the Canadian written opinion: > [@](#): > > … these issues would be more effectively addressed in a broader negotiated context rather than within the procedural limitations of a judicial hearing. Canada respectfully requests that the Court excercise its discretion and decline to respond to the request for an Advisory Opinion at this time. In short, and stripped of diplomatic niceties - nothing whatsoever useful is going to be accomplished by yet another UN kangaroo court proceeding, whose outcome is as predictable as the sun rising; they should just stop this farce. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/50 "2009-11-12T17:10:11Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > “international law” doesn’t exist. > > /wanders in > I wonder why the Israel-Palestinian conflict produces so may articles in international media, condemnations by various NGOs and UN resolutions, etc., and why so many individual people who seem to have no apparent relation to either Palestinians or Israelis get so up in arms about the conflict, when all the other numerous conflicts, obviously tens or hundreds or even thousand times more bloody, why they produce so little noise in comparison. > > About Israel and Palestine. Personally I pretty much don’t give a damn either way. > /wanders out I can’t speak for anyone but myself. I care because my tax dollars are sent to Israel for them to treat the Palestinians like the prawns in _District 9_. I am ineffably ashamed of my own country for financially supporting Israel. Just as corporations and countries divested from South Africa, we too should stop sending welfare payments to a country that oppresses its own people and giving military equipment that’s used to kill children. This is not what America should stand for. If Israel wants to treat Arabs like prawns or spy on our country, then let them, but don’t take it out of my damned check every two weeks so they can have an easier time doing it. Once my country stops expending cash to Israel, my level of outrage will subside considerably to that of Somalia: “Dag! That’s bad, thank goodness we’re not involved in that.” Just my two cents. \ - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/51 "2009-11-12T18:26:43Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Just my two cents. \ This might actually be literally true - of the money taken from you in tax, two cents goes to Israel. The rest goes to numerous other government expenditures. Statistics that are true but I admit may be of dubious value: 2008 Federal outlays: $2.983 trillion 2008 Direct Aid to Israel: $2.4 billion Proportion to Israel: 0.08% So, if you paid about $25 in federal taxes, two cents goes to Israel. I’ll assume you actually paid a lot more, maybe 500 times that amount. So that’s your two cents _and_ your ten bucks. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/52 "2009-11-12T21:37:13Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If I have to choose, I’d go with false. There are indeed non-violent ways to get international attention, though the potential for violence is clearly a useful tool in negotiation. > > A fair comparison at this point is comparing the West Bank and Gaza - which is showing more economic improvement and which is expressing more violence toward Israel? Are these things positively correlated, negatively correlated or uncorrelated? It was my understanding that Fatah (in the West Bank) and Hamas (in Gaza) had slightly different approaches to Israel. Whose is working better? > > Vague notions of having to fight to liberty and all are fine, but some real-world examples would be nice. Are things in the West Bank improving economically, more so than Gaza? (That’s not rhetorical, I really do want to know.) Many people have had the idea of “training” the Palestinians to protest non-violently – for example, Ben Kingsley, who traveled to Palestine with a copy of his movie “Gandhi.” There’s also the International Solidarity Movement, which Rachel Corrie belonged to. I applaud their efforts, but the fact remains that some of the peaceful demonstrations inspired by those efforts were met with lethal force. That’s how at least 2 ISM members were killed (Corrie and Hurndall). It will be an uphill battle to get the locals to see the efficacy of non-violent protest, and an even greater battle to get the world media to cover it like they covered Birmingham Alabama in 1963 – although it may be worth it in the end. Just one thing, though – non-violent protest works better when the oppressor cares about his public image…and the Israeli govt. has become more or less immune to international opinion. Which is a good segue to the “international law” portion of our debate! Israel may laugh at the UN and its resolutions, but Israel definitely does care about public opinion in one place in the world: the United States. The reason Israel’s leaders can ignore the UN is precisely because they know they can count on material aid from the US. And I sense that things may be changing here in the good ol’ U of SA…ever so slowly, glacially, but still…Americans can now criticize Israel with less fear than before of being labeled "anti-semitic, " and there is less likelihood of such a charge sticking. And that will affect media coverage, ever so slightly. But some things have not changed: try to schedule a forum or a play criticizing Israel, and you will be overwhelmed with denunciations, boycott threats and legal threats. That’s why the teachers’ union in Los Angeles, which is normally unafraid of controversy, felt compelled to prohibit an Israel-boycott group from meeting in their building. Free speech has suffered in this country. I did not care very much for the elder President Bush, but he did do one very brave thing: he got the Israelis to negotiate with the Palestinians by actually delaying material aid – credit guarantees, I believe. I think that is the only time an American President has done such a thing. And he paid the price the next year, when he lost to Bill Clinton. Would Obama ever be so brave as to dangle the carrot above Israel, I wonder? **Bith Shuffle** :rolleyes: – the straw man raises his ugly head again, attributing things to me that I did not say. Where did I ever write the words “noble savage”? Again, I say read my OP, especially the part where I acknowledged Palestinian wrongdoing. No human culture or population is perfect, and almost all of them have deep, disturbing flaws of one sort or another. Where we can point the finger at Muslims regarding their subjugation of women, they can point the finger at us regarding our treatment of the elderly, our throwaway marriages and our seemingly sex-obsessed entertainment and advertising. Your use of sweeping generalizations and stereotypes is reprehensible. How do you know so much about what Palestinians are like, and what they would do in different circumstances? Have you made an in-depth study of Palestinian or Muslim culture? Have you looked at demographic studies or opinion polls? Do you have a crystal ball, so you can predict alternative futures? What makes you so bloody _smart_??? To take the Irish parallel a little further: In the 19th century, the Irish and the Irish-Americans were regarded as savages, not “noble” at all. They tended to live in slums (the worst slums in Europe or America), they seemed to have a propensity for violence, their neighborhoods were a source of crime and drunkenness, too many of them were members of secret, conspiratorial societies, they tended to stick together against “outsiders,” and their religion was disturbing and highly suspect. And their political movements committed some unforgiveable atrocities: bombings, assassinations and the like. But their cause of nationhood was just. And once they got 4/5 of their nation back, most of them withdrew from revolutionary politics. 🙂 Today, the Irish are “in.” Everybody wants to buy their summer vacation home in Ireland, and everybody digs “Celtic” music and Ceili dancing. We carve Jack O’ Lanterns on Halloween, we pinch each other on Paddy’s Day, and no one accuses us of condoning “terrorist” culture like they did poor Rachael Ray. If you want to predict the future, look at some more historical analogies – the Irish aren’t the only one. But you can’t win this debate by indulging in stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/53 "2009-11-12T23:11:57Z")
[West Bank Growth](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/11/world/middleeast/11westbank.html) is high, potentially in the double digits. [Including a cutting in half of unemployment since 2002.](http://blogs.cbn.com/stakelbeckonterror/archive/2009/10/08/an-economic-boom-in-the-west-bank.aspx) All signs point to the West Bank gradually opening up and becoming at least economically viable. Gaza, of course, is not having such a re-growth, largely due to the blockade imposed on the region by the IDF. Given the fact that every time the blockade is loosened or broken, Hamas launches rocket attacks, I would hope that one can see the sense in the need for the blockade. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/54 "2009-11-13T00:58:35Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > Unfortunately, I do. A friend of mine who is an American convert to Judaism referred to Palestinians as “animals.” Great, so you know a racist non-Israeli Jew. This proves so much. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Also, I try to avoid hurtful generalizations wherever possible. Please re-read my OP: I did not say that “people” do not think Palestinians deserve human rights. I said that you “often” hear careless or emotional arguments which can degenerate into racism. You do, maybe. I don’t. I suspect you are more willing to count as “racism” things that I’d merely consider criticism. > [@](#): > > For instance, I couldn’t tell you exactly where, but I am certain that I have once or twice read those sentiments on these very boards; to the effect, “Those people don’t deserve their own state,” or something similar. And a viable community (a state) is on my OP’s checklist of human rights. I don’t believe every ethnic group that wants a state deserves one, sorry. For one, it’s utterly unworkable – in numerous places on the globe, there are multiple groups that claim the same territory, and many people groups that do not have their own state. If the Palestinians were able to police themselves effectively, such that their neighbors were not endangered, I’d be a lot more sympathetic. But when you are not able to exercise de facto control over your territory, you have failed the most basic test of sovereignty. > [@](#): > > I strenuously object to your use of the word “they”! We hold INDIVIDUALS responsible for their own actions. We (ideally) do not penalize the mother of the serial killer, or the suicide bomber, merely for raising the criminal from childhood, UNLESS they were an active accessory, before or after the fact, to the actual crimes committed. 1. In most cases, the family and community _are_ complicit. Have you ever seen a news story about a Palestinian mother brokenhearted because her son blew up a schoolbus? Ever seen a profile of a Gaza community troubled by the monster they raised? I haven’t. If you have, please produce one. I _have_ read about mothers, proud of their “martyrs,” getting praised and rewarded for begetting such a hero. Palestinian Children’s TV praises suicide bombing and the killing of Jews. No, not every single person is guilty, but this is not a matter of criminal prosecution (My analogy, as all do breaks down). There were people living in Alabama in 1864 or Germany in 1945 that did not support the governments they lived under. Unfortunately, most of the people did, and the consequences of the majority’s choices affect everyone. > [@](#): > > Too much thinking in “they” terms leads to ethnic cleansing, communal violence and yes, deep-seated racism. How would you like it if the rest of the world decided that “they” (Americans) are collectively guilty for invading the sovereign nation of Iraq, and therefore must be punished? A lot of them pretty much do, and I don’t really blame them. If they want to enact sanctions against the US, or even declare war, there’s nothing to stop them. > [@](#): > > The main branch of the PLO accepted Israel’s right to exist in 1991, making the Oslo negotiations possible. Presidents Bush I and Clinton would not have supported those negotiations otherwise. The PLO agreed to make changes to their charter. Whether or not they have actually done so is a matter of dispute. The leader of the Palestinians right now is Abu Mazen, a fierce opponent of Hamas. [/QUOTE] [Palestinian President Mahmud Abbas yesterday refused to accept Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s demand to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.](http://arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article=121988&d=28&m=4&y=2009&pix=world.jpg&category=World) That the guy? The one who wrote the book about how the Zionists conspired with the Nazis to create the Holocaust , which wasn’t so bad as the Jews made it out to be anyway? He’s your peacemaker? :dubious: Actually, sad to say, Abbas _is_ what passes for a peacemaking moderate in Palestine. The fact that this is true pretty much tells a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/55 "2009-11-13T00:59:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If I have to choose, I’d go with false. There are indeed non-violent ways to get international attention, though the potential for violence is clearly a useful tool in negotiation. > > A fair comparison at this point is comparing the West Bank and Gaza - which is showing more economic improvement and which is expressing more violence toward Israel? Are these things positively correlated, negatively correlated or uncorrelated? It was my understanding that Fatah (in the West Bank) and Hamas (in Gaza) had slightly different approaches to Israel. Whose is working better? > > Vague notions of having to fight to liberty and all are fine, but some real-world examples would be nice. The Palestinians tried nonviolent methods for decades before a single act of terrorism. Any legal or international recourse attempted by them, the Arab states or the predecessors of the Non-Aligned movement were blocked by the US at the UN. Maybe they just looked at Israel, saw a state founded on terrorism and ethnic cleansing, and decided that was the way to go. Gaza is a giant open-air prison. Exactly how do you create a booming economy in those circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/56 "2009-11-13T01:03:05Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > [West Bank Growth](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/11/world/middleeast/11westbank.html) is high, potentially in the double digits. > > [Including a cutting in half of unemployment since 2002.](http://blogs.cbn.com/stakelbeckonterror/archive/2009/10/08/an-economic-boom-in-the-west-bank.aspx) > > All signs point to the West Bank gradually opening up and becoming at least economically viable. > > Gaza, of course, is not having such a re-growth, largely due to the blockade imposed on the region by the IDF. > > Given the fact that every time the blockade is loosened or broken, Hamas launches rocket attacks, I would hope that one can see the sense in the need for the blockade. The West Bank has opened up, in the sense that Israel has opened up a few of the hundreds of checkpoints it has in the WB to control everyday life for every Palestinian. Now that the boot has been slightly relaxed from their necks, they’re able to recover a tiny fraction of the economy that could exist with free movement. Gaza is a big prison, with all entry/egress of people, goods etc. controlled by Israel, so trying to compare recent economic development between the two is beyond silly. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/57 "2009-11-13T01:06:17Z")
> [@furt](#): > > If the Palestinians were able to police themselves effectively, such that their neighbors were not endangered, I’d be a lot more sympathetic. But when you are not able to exercise de facto control over your territory, you have failed the most basic test of sovereignty. > > 1. In most cases, the family and community _are_ complicit. Have you ever seen a news story about a Palestinian mother brokenhearted because her son blew up a schoolbus? Ever seen a profile of a Gaza community troubled by the monster they raised? I haven’t. If you have, please produce one. I _have_ read about mothers, proud of their “martyrs,” getting praised and rewarded for begetting such a hero. Palestinian Children’s TV praises suicide bombing and the killing of Jews. No, not every single person is guilty, but this is not a matter of criminal prosecution (My analogy, as all do breaks down). There were people living in Alabama in 1864 or Germany in 1945 that did not support the governments they lived under. Unfortunately, most of the people did, and the consequences of the majority’s choices affect everyone. The Palestinians have never had any sovereignty or the ability to police themselves. And why shouldn’t Palestinians venerate their freedom fighters? Why should Israel be allowed to venerate and celebrate their terrorists but not the Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/58 "2009-11-13T02:13:27Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > The West Bank has opened up, in the sense that Israel has opened up a few of the hundreds of checkpoints it has in the WB to control everyday life for every Palestinian. Now that the boot has been slightly relaxed from their necks, they’re able to recover a tiny fraction of the economy that could exist with free movement. Gaza is a big prison, with all entry/egress of people, goods etc. controlled by Israel, so trying to compare recent economic development between the two is beyond silly. Doesn’t that suggest that Gaza should do whatever the West-Bankers did to lift some of the boot-pressure? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/59 "2009-11-13T02:24:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Doesn’t that suggest that Gaza should do whatever the West-Bankers did to lift some of the boot-pressure? If the democratically elected represenatives of the Palestinians in Gaza elect to collaborate like the WB people who have no democratic mandate to represent the Palestinian people, then they’ll swiftly be replaced by people who will not collaborate with Israel. The people are resisting because of the occupation of their land and/or their imprisonment on it, and any credible leaders they have will do the same. Once democracy returns to the West Bank, Israel will reimpose the checkpoints and push the boot down just as hard as before. Now I’ve answered you you can answer my reply to your original post. Here is is again, RSVP : The Palestinians tried nonviolent methods for decades before a single act of terrorism. Any legal or international recourse attempted by them, the Arab states or the predecessors of the Non-Aligned movement were blocked by the US at the UN. Maybe they just looked at Israel, saw a state founded on terrorism and ethnic cleansing, and decided that was the way to go. Gaza is a giant open-air prison. Exactly how do you create a booming economy in those circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/60 "2009-11-13T03:27:42Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > If the democratically elected represenatives of the Palestinians in Gaza elect to collaborate like the WB people who have no democratic mandate to represent the Palestinian people, then they’ll swiftly be replaced by people who will not collaborate with Israel. The people are resisting because of the occupation of their land and/or their imprisonment on it, and any credible leaders they have will do the same. Has this happened in the West Bank, the leaderhips being overthrown and such for being too collaborationist? If not, what’s the philisophical difference between the West Bankers and the Gazans? > [@](#): > > Once democracy returns to the West Bank, Israel will reimpose the checkpoints and push the boot down just as hard as before. They will? Without provocation? Now I’ve answered you you can answer my reply to your original post. Here is is again, RSVP : The Palestinians tried nonviolent methods for decades before a single act of terrorism. Any legal or international recourse attempted by them, the Arab states or the predecessors of the Non-Aligned movement were blocked by the US at the UN. Maybe they just looked at Israel, saw a state founded on terrorism and ethnic cleansing, and decided that was the way to go. [/quote] Well, they stopped short of emulating education, women’s liberation and democracy. And over those decades, the Palestinians may not have been violent (assumed for the sake of arugment) but unfortunately the surrounding Arab states were. I know it sucks when would-be conquerers march across your land and get repelled, but I’m not sure how this is specifically Israel’s fault. > [@](#): > > Gaza is a giant open-air prison. Exactly how do you create a booming economy in those circumstances? Well, you stop attacking your neighbor for a while. International pressure shifts to your side, Israel falls under pressure to lift the various strangleholds, start up trade and tourism… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=4)