# pro-Palestinian thread, part 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232 "2009-11-11T21:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/81 "2009-11-13T16:11:33Z")
Yes. A Danish blog. I think the blog in Denmark with the highest number of readers. But the picture is from a newspaper article a few years back. But which I couldn’t find with a few minutes search. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/82 "2009-11-13T17:08:43Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I’ve been trying to stay out of this thread, but your statement is factually wrong, on a whole bunch of levels. Black September was action against the Palestinians by the government of Jordan. King Hussein, upset that Palestinian terrorist attacks against Israel was causing Israeli military retaliation into his country, and afraid that Arafat was planning a coup against him that would have ended with a Palestinian takeover of Jordan, attacked PLO training camps and bases in Jordan, which led ultimately to the PLO and other Palestinian terrorist groups fleeing Jordan for Lebanon. > > But here’s a Wikipedia list, not complete, of Palestinian feyadeen acts against Israeli civilians prior to 1967: > > [List of attacks against Israeli civilians before 1967 - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Terrorist_Attacks_Against_Israel_Before_1967) Those were reprisal attacks by people in military uniform that were in reply to the ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Palestinian land, the number of Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks over the same period was many times higher (as it is now.) In any situation where you have ethnic cleansing going on you’re going to get reprisal attacks by the original population and that’s what was happening here, conveniently rebranded as “terrorism” by the Israelis. It was basically a bunch of tit-for-tat attacks by the ethnic cleansers and the ethnic cleansees. The first actual organised terrorist group carrying out specific terrorist acts wasn’t till the 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/83 "2009-11-13T17:19:08Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You mean when the Palestinian’s fled to the ever victorious Arab armies, leaving their homes and possessions in the expectation that Israel would be wiped from the map and after rejecting the UN division and after Israel was attacked by all it’s neighbors and fighting for it’s life? Is that what you are talking about? And you’d really need to define what you mean by ‘ethnic cleansing’, considering that there are many (peaceful) Palestinian’s (and Arabs) who live IN Israel, AS Israeli citizens. > > Do you have a cite that the first terrorist incident (leaving aside all that invasion and war stuff, of course) didn’t happen until ‘1970ish’? > > -XT If there’s ever a war in your neighborhood and you’re told to evacuate, does temporarily leaving your house to avoid it mean that you give up any future claim on your property? That’s a rhetorical question. There are still Palestinians living in Israel, but only a certain number, the vast majority having been removed from their land at gunpoint, mainly in 1948 but also in smaller numbers over the following decades : [http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=410906](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=410906) This is just one of endless articles I could google up but it comes from a nice uncontroversial source. If you do a bit of research and look at the number of Palestinian villages that were literally wiped off the map or depopulated and renamed, etc. etc. So yeah, ethnic cleansing. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/84 "2009-11-13T17:28:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > 1. Ah, I clearly misunderstood “they’ll swiftly be replaced”. Anyway, aren’t the interests of the Palestinian people served by peace and trade? > > 2.Uh-huh. And is this purely random, completely disconnected from any actions the Palestinians take? > > 3.“Historic Palestine?” Anyway, I don’t know where you got this information. I’d like to read it myself, preferably from a non-Palestinian source. > > 1. Really. Female literacy rates the same? Voting rates? Treatment under the law? Rape accusations get investigated the same way? Abortion rights? > 2. Yeah, and as far as I can tell, the elected government in the West Bank is doing a somewhat better job than that of Gaza. > > Well, I’m prepared to grant or the sake of argument that their only involvement in the various wars was the bad luck of getting caught in the middle of them. > > 1. In that case, they should permanently solve the problems by just obliterating the Palestinians outright. Since they haven’t, I think I’ll assume it is not that case. 1. Yes, but those things tend to take a back seat to, you know, freedom. That tends to be a common factor in every military occupation/insurgency. 2. yes, exactly. 3. It’s an uncontroversial historical fact that Palestinians, who used to occupy 100% of historic Palestine, were herded at gunpoint into 22% of historic Palestine in 1948. 4. You really need to have a llok at how those things are dealt with in sections of the Israeli population before you start holding them out as some kind of standard. Start with the Haredim, their particular take on womens’ rights etc. [http://www.awid.org/eng/Women-s-Rights-in-the-News/Women-s-Rights-in-the-News/Jewish-ultras-defend-morals-with-menace](http://www.awid.org/eng/Women-s-Rights-in-the-News/Women-s-Rights-in-the-News/Jewish-ultras-defend-morals-with-menace) But excluding the unpleasant (but large) bunch of extremists in general terms even Israel’s biggest ally recognises that Israel isn’t a tolerant country : [http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126286.html](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126286.html) 1. There isn’t an elected government in the West Bank. 2. If you’d just explained at the start that you’re genocidal nut who thinks that all Palestinians should be exterminated and the attempt at rational argument was just posturing, I could have saved myself some time. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/85 "2009-11-13T17:29:06Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Those were reprisal attacks by people in military uniform that were in reply to the ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Palestinian land, the number of Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks over the same period was many times higher (as it is now.) In any situation where you have ethnic cleansing going on you’re going to get reprisal attacks by the original population and that’s what was happening here, conveniently rebranded as “terrorism” by the Israelis. It was basically a bunch of tit-for-tat attacks by the ethnic cleansers and the ethnic cleansees. The first actual organised terrorist group carrying out specific terrorist acts wasn’t till the 1970s. How do you feel about the fact that half of the population of Israel is composed of Shephardic/Mizrai Jews “cleansed” from the rest of the ME? The often-overlooked fact about this situation is that it resmbles in many ways the other great nationalist disasters that occured at about the same time, like the division of India and Pakistan with hindus fleeing, or forced, in one direction and Muslims in the other (though with considerably greater bloodshed in that case - something like a million died, apparently). What is so often missing from the “ethnic cleansing” account, is that the Jews were systematically “ethnically cleansed” from most of the ME - and ended up in Israel. The difference of course is that while Pakistan absorbed its muslim immigrants, and India absorbed its Hindu immigrants, and Israel absorbed its Jewish immigrants - the Arab World did _not_ absorb its Arab immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/86 "2009-11-13T17:33:31Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Those were reprisal attacks by people in military uniform that were in reply to the ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Palestinian land, the number of Palestinians killed in Israeli attacks over the same period was many times higher (as it is now.) The big Palestinian exodus from Israel was in 1948. By 1952, when that list starts, pretty much all the Arabs who were going to leave Israel proper already had left and were in refugee camps on the West Bank. There wasn’t ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Israel at that point, and that list lists only attacks on civilian populations, not on government or military targets. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/87 "2009-11-13T17:40:19Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > 1. If you’d just explained at the start that you’re genocidal nut who thinks that all Palestinians should be exterminated and the attempt at rational argument was just posturing, I could have saved myself some time. I see you found an exit strategy from an uncomfortable conversation, albeit one without merit. I’m not advocating that Palestinians be exterminated (as should be obvious), only pointing out that if Israel was as bloodthirsty and uncontrolled as you describe, I’m surprised _they_ didn’t exterminate the Palestinians long ago. What’s stopping them, after all? My conclusion is that the Israelis are _not_ as bloodthirsty and uncontrolled as you describe, which kind of makes _all_ your descriptions suspect, which is why I’d like some independent verification if possible. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/88 "2009-11-13T17:43:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The big Palestinian exodus from Israel was in 1948. By 1952, when that list starts, pretty much all the Arabs who were going to leave Israel proper already had left and were in refugee camps on the West Bank. There wasn’t ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Israel at that point, and that list lists only attacks on civilian populations, not on government or military targets. Yes there was and yes it still continues today. There are a bunch of Palestinians in Jerusalem due to get their houses bulldozed. But on top of the actual physical removal of people from their land and property, you’ve got a whole bunch of apartheid-like laws that effectively do the same thing : Four decades later, the increasingly complex world of Israel’s system of classification deems Said Rhateb to be a resident of the West Bank - somewhere he has never lived - and an illegal alien for living in the home in which he was born, inside the Jerusalem boundary. Jerusalem’s council forces Rhateb to pay substantial property taxes on his house but that does not give him the right to live in it, and he is periodically arrested for doing so. Rhateb’s children have been thrown out of their Jerusalem school, he cannot register a car in his name - or rather he can, but only one with Palestinian number plates, which means he cannot drive it to his home because only Israeli-registered cars are allowed within Jerusalem - and he needs a pass to visit the centre of the city. The army grants him about four a year. There is more. If Rhateb is not legally resident in his own home, then he is defined as an “absentee” who has abandoned his property. Under Israeli law, it now belongs to the state or, more particularly, its Jewish citizens. “They sent papers that said we cannot sell the land or develop it because we do not own the land. It belongs to the state,” he says. “Any time they want to confiscate it, they can, because they say we are absentees even though we are living in the house. That’s what forced my older brother and three sisters to live in the US. They couldn’t bear the harassment.” > **[Worlds apart](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/06/southafrica.israel)** > > Within Israel accusations persist that the web of controls affecting every aspect of Palestinian life bears a disturbing resemblance to apartheid. After four years reporting from Jerusalem and over a decade from Johannesburg before that, the... It’s not a perfect way of describing it but pre about Oslo, when Israel was forced to accept a little legal responsibility for the occupation, the ethnic cleansing was done by violent means (which engendered reprisals). Post-Oslo, by laws like the ones described above. And you know, the government just passing extra-judicial decrees that allow settlements to be built on land internationally recognised as Palestinian. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/89 "2009-11-13T17:45:29Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > How do you feel about the fact that half of the population of Israel is composed of Shephardic/Mizrai Jews “cleansed” from the rest of the ME? > > The often-overlooked fact about this situation is that it resmbles in many ways the other great nationalist disasters that occured at about the same time, like the division of India and Pakistan with hindus fleeing, or forced, in one direction and Muslims in the other (though with considerably greater bloodshed in that case - something like a million died, apparently). > > What is so often missing from the “ethnic cleansing” account, is that the Jews were systematically “ethnically cleansed” from most of the ME - and ended up in Israel. > > The difference of course is that while Pakistan absorbed its muslim immigrants, and India absorbed its Hindu immigrants, and Israel absorbed its Jewish immigrants - the Arab World did _not_ absorb its Arab immigrants. I think all those Jews should have the right of return, just like Palestinian refugees. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/90 "2009-11-13T17:47:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I see you found an exit strategy from an uncomfortable conversation, albeit one without merit. I’m not advocating that Palestinians be exterminated (as should be obvious), only pointing out that if Israel was as bloodthirsty and uncontrolled as you describe, I’m surprised _they_ didn’t exterminate the Palestinians long ago. What’s stopping them, after all? > > My conclusion is that the Israelis are _not_ as bloodthirsty and uncontrolled as you describe, which kind of makes _all_ your descriptions suspect, which is why I’d like some independent verification if possible. I’m not exiting anything, I’m mocking your genocidal rhetoric, which you’re still using in this post, although you’re merely “pointing out” something in this post. Lovely. You’re the one avoiding points 1-5. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/91 "2009-11-13T18:41:23Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I’m not exiting anything, I’m mocking your genocidal rhetoric, which you’re still using in this post, although you’re merely “pointing out” something in this post. Lovely. You’re the one avoiding points 1-5. You’re mocking _my_ genocidal rhetoric? Heh, okay, then… As for points 1-5, I’d like some verification of their assertions, or at least some specifics. > [@](#): > > 1. Yes, but those things tend to take a back seat to, you know, freedom. That tends to be a common factor in every military occupation/insurgency. Well, can anyone reasonably expect to live in freedom while launching rockets and directing suicide bombers into a neighbor’s territory? If you want that freedom, is it not reasonable to stop such attacks so the neighbor will not respond in ways that limit your freedom? > [@](#): > > 1. yes, exactly. Exactly? Israel’s actions have _no_ connection to Palestinian actions? They’re just randomly decided and there is nothing the Palestinians can do or not do to affect them? > [@](#): > > 1. It’s an uncontroversial historical fact that Palestinians, who used to occupy 100% of historic Palestine, were herded at gunpoint into 22% of historic Palestine in 1948. And I like to read more about the subject, so this is my second request for an independent cite. > [@](#): > > 1. You really need to have a llok at how those things are dealt with in sections of the Israeli population before you start holding them out as some kind of standard. Start with the Haredim, their particular take on womens’ rights etc. > > [http://www.awid.org/eng/Women-s-Righ...ls-with-menace](http://www.awid.org/eng/Women-s-Righ...ls-with-menace) It’s worth noting that in that cite, one of the religious thugs says “'There was a mess with the police”, i.e. the secular cops are opposing the actions of the extremists, and if the ones who assault women get arrested and convicted, I’ve no doubt that they’ll be punished. I’m somewhat less convinced that similar actions of Palestinians face similar punishments. In any case, it’s easy to find thugs and jerks in every culture. That why I asked about demographics like female literacy and voting rights and abortion rights. > [@](#): > > But excluding the unpleasant (but large) bunch of extremists in general terms even Israel’s biggest ally recognises that Israel isn’t a tolerant country : > > [http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126286.html](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126286.html) Intolerant compared to other liberal democracies, sure. Quite tolerant when compared to its neighbors. I guess I could make a list of all the outrages listed in the article and compare them to life in the territories, Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. Offhand, I’d guess that Lebanon in many ways has more religious freedom than Israel, by virtue of its more diverse population. > [@](#): > > 1. There isn’t an elected government in the West Bank. There isn’t? Then what are Fatah and Hamas fighting over? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/92 "2009-11-13T18:48:27Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > Yes it does!!!:p:p:p Especially since you had previously denied knowing of the existence of any such person. First deny the truth, then deny the truth is important…that’s an old tactic. I still do not know of the existance of any such person. You know of one. For both of us, it means fuck all. > [@](#): > > Aren’t most restive populations perceived to be incompetent at managing their own affairs, until they actually get the chance? The Palestinians have built universities, hospitals and municipal governments from the ground up whenever they’ve been given the chance and left in peace. When they can stop people from launching rockets into Israel, I’ll be impressed. Hell, I’ll be impressed if I think they’re _trying_. The monopoly of violence is the most basic measure of a functioning state. If you cannot stop people from launching military attacks against your neighbors, you are not functioning. If you can stop them but will not, you are waging war by proxy. You give me a call when they start putting significant numbers of terrorists in jail and keeping them there. > [@](#): > > Your wish is my command. For the record, I have seen plenty of distraught Palestinian parents in the mainstream media, mourning instead of celebrating their child’s decision to become a suicide bomber. But since you demanded a cite, here is a Chicago Tribune article, reprinted on [this website](http://www.eufunding.org/Textbooks/EuropesPalestinianChildren.html), that clearly shows the mixed feelings and reactions of a Palestinian community when one of their own throws his/her life away. Mixed Feelings? Mixed fucking feelings? Murdering innocent civilians is sick, perverse and evil. It is not the kind of thing one should have “mixed feelings” about. One ought not be ambivalent about the deliberate killing of children, no matter whose children or when. If my brother did it, I’d still love him as a brother, but I’d also say that what he did was morally abhorrent and wrong. I’d probably figure he was mentally ill. I’d sure as shit do some serious soul-searching to figure out what the fuck I might have done wrong, however trivial, that might have contributed to his crime. I’d apologize to the victims and do what little I could to try to mitigate their pain. If anyone else tried to lionize him as some kind of hero, I would do everything in my power to stop him. Is that what happens here? Fuck no. YOUR cite – presumably the most freindly one you found, paints a clear picture of a society that has, as a whole, embraced a depraved mentality. Despite your insistince to the contrary, I have not engaged in any sterotyping. I have no doubt that there are Palestinians that devoutly want peace; I know some of them, as I have Arab and Muslim freinds. It doesn’t change the fact that the larger society is shot through with a hateful anti-semitic racism. From your cite: > [@](#): > > Soccer teams are named for Issam Odeh’s younger brother. So are newborn babies. > [@](#): > > Hours after the bombing, crowds milled around the Odeh home to celebrate what they called martyrdom. Yes, his family has come to see what he did as wrong … after the Israeli reprisal. One wonders what they’d be saying that had not happened. Of course, their understanding only goes so far: > [@](#): > > “The other day, my 7-year-old kid, in 1st grade, asked me: Daddy, is an Israeli soldier a human being, like us? . . . I couldn’t figure out how to answer,” Wow, he stopped short of denying that Israelis were human beings. That’s progress right there. :rolleyes: Again – I don’t deny that there are peace loving individuals in Palestine. But they do not reflect the overall culture. I’ve seen the video of Palestinian children’s TV praising martydom (even checked the translation with Arab freinds). I’ve read multiple accounts of school curriculum depicting Jews as savage animals. I’ve read dozens of stories like these: > [@](#): > > [Hours after the killing of 15 Israelis in a Jerusalem restaurant last week, the brother of the 23-year-old suicide bomber delightedly announced that “this is a unique operation for its quality and success… Palestinians everywhere can now hold up their heads.”](http://www.danielpipes.org/390/suicide-bombers-a-fathers-pride-and-glory) > [@](#): > > [Woman suicide bomber’s family: We’re very proud](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3331878,00.html) > [@](#): > > [“He was a hero and I am proud of Samir but I have suffered from his loss,”](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1082816.ece) > [@](#): > > [Family ‘proud’ of suicide bomber](http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/10/05/1065292478048.html) > [@](#): > > Methinks you need to expand the scope of your reading a little more, if you totally missed the diversity of Palestinian opinion. Ah, yes. The old “If you don’t agree with me, well you’re obviously not as well read.” You can shove that one hard, chuckles. I just got four links off the first page of Google that old well-read you will no doubt be shocked to find. You wanna claim to be well-read? [Read 'em all.](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS217US239&q=palestinian+suicide+bomber+family&aq=f&oq=&aqi=) While you’re at it, try [this.](http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS217US239&q=palestinian%20children%27s%20TV&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#) No, no, watch 'em all. > [@](#): > > (Quote from the linked article: At one point, only 49% of Palestinians approved of the tactic of suicide bombing. That may be too high, but it is still a _minority_. Actually, that’s a quite low figure … most polls show [significantly](http://pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=19&country=168) [higher](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2072851.stm). But let’s go with it. That means that 49% of them actively support suicide bombings. It’s not a stretch at all to figure that there are other segments that fall into “Don’t know,” or “I don’t support it, but only because it’s counterproductive,” or “I don’t support it, but I wouldn’t stop someone else who does it.” Suicide bombing – or for that matter, any deliberate targeting of civilians with no military purpose – is not a minor transgression. It is a vile, evil despicable act. When 49% of any group support it, that is a deeply disturbed group. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/93 "2009-11-13T19:12:28Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Yes there was and yes it still continues today. There are a bunch of Palestinians in Jerusalem due to get their houses bulldozed. But on top of the actual physical removal of people from their land and property, you’ve got a whole bunch of apartheid-like laws that effectively do the same thing : My heart overflows with pity for Said Rhateb and I am swelled with compassion. However, that doesn’t rebut what I was saying, which was that by 1952, there wasn’t much active ethnic cleansing going on in Israel. The Palestinians had already left and were in refugee camps in the West Bank, and there weren’t many Arabs inside the borders of Israel, period, and the ones that were were more or less unmolested. You can say that the list of terrorist attacks I referred to was in retaliation for the prior expulsion of Palestinians, and I’d probably agree with you, but that’s different than saying that it was active resistance against current expulsion. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/94 "2009-11-13T19:20:25Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I think all those Jews should have the right of return, just like Palestinian refugees. Such a “right” would be totally illusory, since none have any desire to exercise it - and for good reason. Moreover, there is no movement seeking such a right, no chance that ME governments would accept its exercise, etc. In practice, yes, granting the Palestinian exiles a “right of return” would no doubt require the corresponding expulsion of the shephardim/mizrahim who have mostly taken their place. But there is nowhere for them to go. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/95 "2009-11-13T19:30:58Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I still do not know of the existance of any such person. You know of one. For both of us, it means fuck all. > > When they can stop people from launching rockets into Israel, I’ll be impressed. Hell, I’ll be impressed if I think they’re _trying_. The monopoly of violence is the most basic measure of a functioning state. If you cannot stop people from launching military attacks against your neighbors, you are not functioning. If you can stop them but will not, you are waging war by proxy. You give me a call when they start putting significant numbers of terrorists in jail and keeping them there. > > Mixed Feelings? Mixed fucking feelings? > > Murdering innocent civilians is sick, perverse and evil. It is not the kind of thing one should have “mixed feelings” about. One ought not be ambivalent about the deliberate killing of children, no matter whose children or when. > > If my brother did it, I’d still love him as a brother, but I’d also say that what he did was morally abhorrent and wrong. I’d probably figure he was mentally ill. I’d sure as shit do some serious soul-searching to figure out what the fuck I might have done wrong, however trivial, that might have contributed to his crime. I’d apologize to the victims and do what little I could to try to mitigate their pain. If anyone else tried to lionize him as some kind of hero, I would do everything in my power to stop him. > > Is that what happens here? Fuck no. YOUR cite – presumably the most freindly one you found, paints a clear picture of a society that has, as a whole, embraced a depraved mentality. Despite your insistince to the contrary, I have not engaged in any sterotyping. I have no doubt that there are Palestinians that devoutly want peace; I know some of them, as I have Arab and Muslim freinds. It doesn’t change the fact that the larger society is shot through with a hateful anti-semitic racism. > > From your cite: > > Yes, his family has come to see what he did as wrong … after the Israeli reprisal. One wonders what they’d be saying that had not happened. Of course, their understanding only goes so far: > > Wow, he stopped short of denying that Israelis were human beings. That’s progress right there. :rolleyes: > Again – I don’t deny that there are peace loving individuals in Palestine. But they do not reflect the overall culture. I’ve seen the video of Palestinian children’s TV praising martydom (even checked the translation with Arab freinds). I’ve read multiple accounts of school curriculum depicting Jews as savage animals. I’ve read dozens of stories like these: > > Ah, yes. The old “If you don’t agree with me, well you’re obviously not as well read.” You can shove that one hard, chuckles. I just got four links off the first page of Google that old well-read you will no doubt be shocked to find. > > You wanna claim to be well-read? [Read 'em all.](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS217US239&q=palestinian+suicide+bomber+family&aq=f&oq=&aqi=) > > While you’re at it, try [this.](http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS217US239&q=palestinian%20children%27s%20TV&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#) No, no, watch 'em all. > > Actually, that’s a quite low figure … most polls show [significantly](http://pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=19&country=168) [higher](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2072851.stm). > > But let’s go with it. That means that 49% of them actively support suicide bombings. It’s not a stretch at all to figure that there are other segments that fall into “Don’t know,” or “I don’t support it, but only because it’s counterproductive,” or “I don’t support it, but I wouldn’t stop someone else who does it.” > > Suicide bombing – or for that matter, any deliberate targeting of civilians with no military purpose – is not a minor transgression. It is a vile, evil despicable act. When 49% of any group support it, that is a deeply disturbed group. Again, why should Palestinians venerating and celebrating their terrorists be such a bad thing while it’s fine for the Israelis? Why the double standard? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/96 "2009-11-13T19:34:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > My heart overflows with pity for Said Rhateb and I am swelled with compassion. However, that doesn’t rebut what I was saying, which was that by 1952, there wasn’t much active ethnic cleansing going on in Israel. The Palestinians had already left and were in refugee camps in the West Bank, and there weren’t many Arabs inside the borders of Israel, period, and the ones that were were more or less unmolested. You can say that the list of terrorist attacks I referred to was in retaliation for the prior expulsion of Palestinians, and I’d probably agree with you, but that’s different than saying that it was active resistance against current expulsion. The main ethnic cleansing took place in 1948 but it continued at a lower level after that. 20% of the Israeli poplation is still Palestinian. To say they’ve been unmolested ever since 1948 flies in the face of the facts and the evidence. You’d have to have a funny definition of “unmolested.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/97 "2009-11-13T19:37:10Z")
Well, he said they were “more or less unmolested”. Adjectives count. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/98 "2009-11-13T19:45:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > 1. Well, can anyone reasonably expect to live in freedom while launching rockets and directing suicide bombers into a neighbor’s territory? If you want that freedom, is it not reasonable to stop such attacks so the neighbor will not respond in ways that limit your freedom? > 2.Exactly? Israel’s actions have _no_ connection to Palestinian actions? They’re just randomly decided and there is nothing the Palestinians can do or not do to affect them? > > 2. And I like to read more about the subject, so this is my second request for an independent cite. > > 4.It’s worth noting that in that cite, one of the religious thugs says “'There was a mess with the police”, i.e. the secular cops are opposing the actions of the extremists, and if the ones who assault women get arrested and convicted, I’ve no doubt that they’ll be punished. I’m somewhat less convinced that similar actions of Palestinians face similar punishments. In any case, it’s easy to find thugs and jerks in every culture. That why I asked about demographics like female literacy and voting rights and abortion rights. > > 5.Intolerant compared to other liberal democracies, sure. Quite tolerant when compared to its neighbors. I guess I could make a list of all the outrages listed in the article and compare them to life in the territories, Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. Offhand, I’d guess that Lebanon in many ways has more religious freedom than Israel, by virtue of its more diverse population. > > There isn’t? Then what are Fatah and Hamas fighting over? 1.Palestinian actions are a reaction to the ongoing 40 year occupation, imprisonment, repression etc. In every similar case, most recently Northern Ireland, Iraq etc., it’s taken the agressor, the occupier, to make the first move as part of obvious good-faith peace negotiations for the violence by the occupied to stop. 1. No, none at all. Israel have poked the Palestinians with an IDF stick, ratcheted up and down the level of repression in the occupied territories to suit their purposes. 2. Are you seriously telling me you’re so clueless about this subject that the fact that Israel herded Palestinians into 22% of their original land is something new to you? It’s a historical fact, read a history book. Where do you think the Palestinian refugee camps came from? 3. However you want to apologise for their actions is up to you but if you do a little bit of research into womens’ rights in Israel you’ll prbably drop your contention on this point. Go and read about the Israeli woman who got beaten senselss on a bus because she wouldn’t go and sit at the back. That was just recent, google news should have that one. 4. How many liberal democracies construct a web of nationality and residency laws designed for use by one section of the population against another? South Africa used to. Israel currently do. Or carry on an illegal 40+ year military occupation? That’s not very liberal, is it? Hard to describe Israel as a liberal democracy. EDIT: 6. No, Fatah have no democratic legitimacy in the West Bank or anywhere else. Hamas are the only people with a democratic mandate in the West Bank. They’re fighting because the illegitimate Fatah are working with Israel against the democratically expressed wishes of the Palestinian people. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/99 "2009-11-13T19:48:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, he said they were “more or less unmolested”. Adjectives count. Either way it’s a ridiculous claim. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/100 "2009-11-13T20:03:55Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > 1.Palestinian actions are a reaction to the ongoing 40 year occupation, imprisonment, repression etc. In every similar case, most recently Northern Ireland, Iraq etc., it’s taken the agressor, the occupier, to make the first move as part of obvious good-faith peace negotiations for the violence by the occupied to stop. Well, Israel has taken several such steps. They’re not actually in Gaza anymore, though they maintain a high degree (if not effectively a total degree) of military control. Wouldn’t an effective strategy for the Gazans be to stop all offensive actions so Israel can reduce that control? Aren’t rocket attacks counterproductive? > [@](#): > > 1. No, none at all. Israel have poked the Palestinians with an IDF stick, ratcheted up and down the level of repression in the occupied territories to suit their purposes. We’ll just have to disagree, though I’m curious what you think Israel’s purposes are. > [@](#): > > 1. Are you seriously telling me you’re so clueless about this subject that the fact that Israel herded Palestinians into 22% of their original land is something new to you? It’s a historical fact, read a history book. Where do you think the Palestinian refugee camps came from? I don’t think it poses a huge imposition for me to ask for some additional details about this, i.e. the name of a particular history book that discusses it at length, or a link to a website detailing the matter. > [@](#): > > 1. However you want to apologise for their actions is up to you but if you do a little bit of research into womens’ rights in Israel you’ll prbably drop your contention on this point. Go and read about the Israeli woman who got beaten senselss on a bus because she wouldn’t go and sit at the back. That was just recent, google news should have that one. Israeli jerks exists. No apologies, here. > [@](#): > > 1. How many liberal democracies construct a web of nationality and residency laws designed for use by one section of the population against another? South Africa used to. Israel currently do. Or carry on an illegal 40+ year military occupation? That’s not very liberal, is it? Hard to describe Israel as a liberal democracy. It’s at the non-liberal edge of liberal, I guess, but compared to it’s neighbors… > [@](#): > > EDIT: 6. No, Fatah have no democratic legitimacy in the West Bank or anywhere else. Hamas are the only people with a democratic mandate in the West Bank. They’re fighting because the illegitimate Fatah are working with Israel against the democratically expressed wishes of the Palestinian people. Possibly, but if Hamas represents the democratic will of the Palestinian people, then the Palestinian people must want war with Israel because Hamas wants war with Israel. In any case, Hamas has shown that they’re quite capable of using violence and intimidation on Palestinians, so whether or not they _actually_ represent the people’s democratic will is uncertain. It’s not clear at all that they represent the Palestinians’ best interests. Hence comparisons of the West Bank under Fatah (where conditions seem to be improving, with a long way yet to go) to Gaza under Hamas (where conditions are not improving at all, with a long way to go not even started) are fair game. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=6)