# pro-Palestinian thread, part 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 11, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232 "2009-11-11T21:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/161 "2009-11-17T16:00:15Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > So again, you have nothing at all to back up your claims of the ethnic cleansing of Jaffa or the rest of Israel. This 1950 law applied to those who had _already_ fled/abandoned/been ethnically cleansed (take your pick) in 1948. They were **not** being expelled in the 1950s/60s. The Arab population in Jaffa has **increased** since 1950. If these hundreds of super double-secret under-the-radar actions of ethnic cleansing you claim occurred in the 50s/60s had happened, the Arab population in Jaffa should have dropped or been eliminated entirely, no? I mean what you actually said was > When the nations that urged you to evacuate and took you in as refugees after they failed to drive the Jews into the sea continue to refuse to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist things get messy. More so when the fighting has ended in armistices intended to be interim measures followed by the signing of peace treaties, only no peace treaties are signed. More so when attacks/terrorism continue to happen after the end of the war. More so when a lot of these attacks are conducted by this refugee population. More so when Israel and its neighbors continue to go to full scale war with each other repeatedly. > > Just to put the shoe on the other foot, what do you suppose would have happened to the ownership of Jewish houses had Israel lost the '48 war and their owners been driven into the sea? I’m happy to let our fellow forumers judge whether I’ve made an effective argument re. the 1950s. And if you’re told to evacuate because you’re in the middle of a war zone, does this mean that you give up all future rights to your property? Just a yes or no. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/162 "2009-11-17T16:03:42Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Dick, do you have a link to more than just the table? [Here](http://www.torah.org/learning/basics/israel-nutshell/chapter3.html#) is a site I found on a quick google search that goes a bit better into the numbers and what they mean. > > ```php > Year Arab Population Jewish Population > 1600 250,000 5,000 > 1850 480,000 17,000 > 1890 530,000 43,000 > 1922 590,000 84,000 > 1931 760,000 174,000 > 1939 900,000 450,000 > 1948 980,000 650,000 > 1954 192,000 1,530,000 > 1969 423,000 2,500,000 > 1989 843,000 3,700,000 > 1997 1,120,000 4,640,000 > > ``` > > -XT So you’re agreeing with me that until a bunch of Jewish religious fanatics decided to try and set up a new state in another country, there was a negligible Jewish population in Palestine. Excellent. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/163 "2009-11-17T16:04:45Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No; and neither have the locals attempted to murder them. That’s good to know. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/164 "2009-11-17T16:09:32Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] So you’re agreeing with me that until a bunch of Jewish religious fanatics decided to try and set up a new state in another country, there was a negligible Jewish population in Palestine. Excellent. [/QUOTE] Um, no…I’m not. I’m putting the figures into context which, sadly, is beyond you, since you are so biased on this issue. It was interesting that you (or your cite) would pick the particular time frame they did and then you would only post the raw table. Interesting, no? The anti-Evolution crowd uses almost exactly the same tactic… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/165 "2009-11-17T16:18:57Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Um, no…I’m not. I’m putting the figures into context which, sadly, is beyond you, since you are so biased on this issue. It was interesting that you (or your cite) would pick the particular time frame they did and then you would only post the raw table. Interesting, no? The anti-Evolution crowd uses almost exactly the same tactic… > > -XT I’m picking 1880 because that’s when the Zionist movement started to organise, to raise funds to send settlers to Palestine to settle. That’s why the professor who wrote the book picked that date! If you look back to your own numbers you can see from 1600 Jews were 2% of the population. In 1880 it was 3%. Once organised immigrtion started it went up. That’s the context. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/166 "2009-11-17T16:19:52Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > So you’re agreeing with me that until a bunch of Jewish religious fanatics decided to try and set up a new state in another country, there was a negligible Jewish population in Palestine. Excellent. The fact that you think that the early Zionists were “religious fanatics” proves that you are completely and utterly ignorant of the issues you are discussing. Seriously - you might as well say that Israel was founded by gay samurai piano tuners, and you’d be nearly as close to the truth. There’s a old Jewish saying: “the empty barrel makes the most noise”. I suggest you take it to heart. That aside - I fail to see your point. Don’t legal immigrants have precisely the same rights as natives? Isn’t that the case in the civilized world? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/167 "2009-11-17T16:20:09Z")
BTW, did a quick google search on Prof Justin McCarthy…what do you suppose I found, DD? You should know since you used him as a cite… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/168 "2009-11-17T16:24:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The fact that you think that the early Zionists were “religious fanatics” proves that you are completely and utterly ignorant of the issues you are discussing. Seriously - you might as well say that Israel was founded by gay samurai piano tuners, and you’d be nearly as close to the truth. There’s a old Jewish saying: “the empty barrel makes the most noise”. I suggest you take it to heart. > > That aside - I fail to see your point. Don’t legal immigrants have precisely the same rights as natives? Isn’t that the case in the civilized world? Yes, they’re allowed in to work and can at some point claim citizenship of the country they emigrated to. They don’t usually declare a new state in the country they now live in and ethnically cleanse the original inhabitants into ghettoes in their own land. As a general rule. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/169 "2009-11-17T16:25:04Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] I’m picking 1880 because that’s when the Zionist movement started to organise, to raise funds to send settlers to Palestine to settle. That’s why the professor who wrote the book picked that date! If you look back to your own numbers you can see from 1600 Jews were 2% of the population. In 1880 it was 3%. Once organised immigrtion started it went up. That’s the context. [/QUOTE] No, that’s not the context. The context is the fact that both Palestinian’s AND Jews were immigrating into that area…and why they were doing so. THAT is the context. The raw numbers don’t really tell the tail, and using them as you have is either clever (if you were trying to trick people) or silly (if you don’t understand the ‘why’ yourself). From my earlier cite: > [@](#): > > For the sake of perspective, we should not forget the basic fact that from 1917 to 1948 the British kept tight controls over Jewish immigration to Palestine, while there were virtually no restrictions on Arab immigration. > > The truth about Jewish emigration to Palestine is that not only did the Jews not displace a large indigenous Arab population that had been there for millennia but that it was Jewish efforts to develop Palestine that directly resulted in a dramatic rise in Palestine’s Arab population. It wouldn’t be true to say that there weren’t Jews who, as statehood approached-and particularly after the Arab riots in the twenties and thirties-hoped that a way could be found to establish a Jewish state that had as few Arab citizens as possible. Nonetheless, it was never a matter of policy or practice for the burgeoning Jewish community in Palestine to seek to drive the Arabs out of their homes. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/170 "2009-11-17T16:28:21Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > BTW, did a quick google search on Prof Justin McCarthy…what do you suppose I found, DD? You should know since you used him as a cite… > > -XT I’m sure he’s capable of accurately transcribing Ottoman census numbers. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/171 "2009-11-17T16:28:55Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] Yes, they’re allowed in to work and can at some point claim citizenship of the country they emigrated to. They don’t usually declare a new state in the country they now live in and ethnically cleanse the original inhabitants into ghettoes in their own land. As a general rule. [/QUOTE] What country are you referring too, DD? There WAS no country…just a territory being controlled and operated by the British. Before that, it was a minor principality controlled by the Ottoman Turks. Context is everything, and it’s something that you seemingly have no grasp of on this subject. The Jews didn’t simply move in and declare their own country. The Palestinian’s didn’t HAVE a country of their own before this, and they COULD have…had they simply gone along with the original UN two state solution. They choose not too, and choose to attempt to establish their own country through force of arms. Israel went along with the original UN solution, but was forced to fight. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/172 "2009-11-17T16:30:38Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Yes, they’re allowed in to work and can at some point claim citizenship of the country they emigrated to. They don’t usually declare a new state in the country they now live in and ethnically cleanse the original inhabitants into ghettoes in their own land. As a general rule. Worked for Texas. Anyway, it depends when and where. In some countries they’re citizens the moment they come off the boat; as soon as that happens, they have exactly the same right to the land as people whose ancestors have been there for centuries. They have the same right to declare a country as any indigenous people. If the Palestinians could declare independence, why couldn’t the Jews? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/173 "2009-11-17T16:31:18Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] I’m sure he’s capable of accurately transcribing Ottoman census numbers. [/QUOTE] Uhuh, to be sure. Some of his contemporaries aren’t so sure, however, since the guy is essentially an Armenian Genocide denier. Why don’t you re-do the cite and give us the web page you got the table you are using from? That would put his own table into context, ehe? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/174 "2009-11-17T16:32:02Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > No, that’s not the context. The context is the fact that both Palestinian’s AND Jews were immigrating into that area…and why they were doing so. THAT is the context. The raw numbers don’t really tell the tail, and using them as you have is either clever (if you were trying to trick people) or silly (if you don’t understand the ‘why’ yourself). > > From my earlier cite: > > -XT From your own numbers we can see that as far back as 1600 to the late 19th century Jews were a tiny minority in Palestine. If you’re then going to look at the respective immigration levels of Jews and Arabs to Palestine, particularly from when the Arab:Jew ratio started to change substantially, I think any reasonable person would say that net Jewish immigration far exceeded net Arab immigration in the time period when, for the first time in centuries, the Arab:Jew changed significantly. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/175 "2009-11-17T16:32:20Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > And if you’re told to evacuate because you’re in the middle of a war zone, does this mean that you give up all future rights to your property? Just a yes or no. Well, the very nature of a war zone means “rights”, especially “future rights” are kinda up for grabs. That’s just reality though, don’t let it throw you. So, can you say even one positive thing about Israel? It won’t mean anything, I’m just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/176 "2009-11-17T16:37:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > There’s a old Jewish saying: “the empty barrel makes the most noise” The sneaky tricksy Jews stole in from Denmark! The exact same saying in Danish: ”Tomme tønder buldre mest.” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/177 "2009-11-17T16:37:46Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] From your own numbers we can see that as far back as 1600 to the late 19th century Jews were a tiny minority in Palestine. [/QUOTE] Yes, that’s true. Again I ask…so what? > [@](#): > > If you’re then going to look at the respective immigration levels of Jews and Arabs to Palestine, particularly from when the Arab:Jew ratio started to change substantially, I think any reasonable person would say that net Jewish immigration far exceeded net Arab immigration in the time period when, for the first time in centuries, the Arab:Jew changed significantly. Yes, they did. Again, so what? Were they illegally immigrating? Answer: No. Were they illegally buying land? Answer: No. So, what difference does it make that more Jews were (legally) immigrating and (legally) buying land in Palestine? Especially since the fact that they were buying and developing that land played a major part in making the land worth something. Which had a significant impact (along with the British post-1917) in why a significant Arab population was ALSO moving back into the area. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/178 "2009-11-17T16:38:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Worked for Texas. > > Anyway, it depends when and where. In some countries they’re citizens the moment they come off the boat; as soon as that happens, they have exactly the same right to the land as people whose ancestors have been there for centuries. They have the same right to declare a country as any indigenous people. If the Palestinians could declare independence, why couldn’t the Jews? So immigrants to America have the right to declare a state in the middle of America? Which American state would be OK with that? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/179 "2009-11-17T16:40:02Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Yes, that’s true. Again I ask…so what? > > Yes, they did. Again, so what? Were they illegally immigrating? Answer: No. Were they illegally buying land? Answer: No. > > So, what difference does it make that more Jews were (legally) immigrating and (legally) buying land in Palestine? Especially since the fact that they were buying and developing that land played a major part in making the land worth something. Which had a significant impact (along with the British post-1917) in why a significant Arab population was ALSO moving back into the area. > > -XT I’m just happy we both agree that Jews were a tiny minority in Palestine until the organised Zionist immigration. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232/180 "2009-11-17T16:40:44Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] So immigrants to America have the right to declare a state in the middle of America? Which American state would be OK with that? [/QUOTE] Last time I checked America was a sovereign state. During the period when Israel formed it’s own state it was NOT a sovereign state. Far from it…it was a British Protectorate and essentially a colonial possession of the crown. So, it’s an apples to oranges comparison…and one you seem reluctant to let go of, since you’ve used this before in the thread and were told the same thing. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-palestinian-thread-part-2/517232.md?page=10)