# Pro-totalitarian works of fiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 27, 2009, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887 "2009-08-27T08:00:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/41 "2009-08-27T23:33:48Z")
> [@Neidhart](#): > > How about most of the officially-approved novels published by Soviet writers in the USSR? The only Russian novel officially approved by the Soviet Union that I’ve read (in translation) is _And Quiet Flows the Don_. It was years ago that I read it, but I remember being surprised that it did not glorify totalitarianism. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/42 "2009-08-27T23:42:02Z")
Maybe more authoritarian than totalitarian, but the Atreides family of Dune seems to fit in the later books, although I haven’t read them so maybe I’m off a bit. Paul and Leto enforce their will to save humanity, but cause millions of deaths in the meantime. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/43 "2009-08-27T23:54:02Z")
We have to distinguish between works that portray totalitarian or authoritarian systems, and those that advocate totalitarian or authoritarian systems. Nobody argues that 1984 advocates totalitarianism, right? Now, 1984 is unambiguously an anti-totalitarian book. It’s easy to see that a boot stamping on a human face, forever, is bad. But other works don’t spoon-feed the message. Take “Dune”, for instance. Paul is portrayed fairly sympathetically. But that’s a trick. He is a monster, just as much as the Baron, and the author intends for us to see him as a monster. The Baron is a cackling stereotype of a monster. Paul is a sympathetic monster. I suppose reading the Dune books as a kid I missed it. But the universe of the Dune books is a horrible dystopia, and it’s not intended to be anything else. Paul Atreides is the protagonist of _Dune_, but he’s no more a hero than Count Dracula is, and Dune doesn’t advocate his rule any more than the book **Dracula** advocates vampirism. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/44 "2009-08-28T00:42:33Z")
[Philip Dru: Administrator](http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/Dru/index.htm) about the armed takeover of the US by a benevolent dictator who cures all our nation’s ills, by Edwar Mandell House. No different than many other such fantasies, except that House flattered Woodrow Wilson into assuming the mantle of his fictional hero, resulting in, arguably, world disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/45 "2009-08-28T01:10:54Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > You had to sign up, and take whatever job they gave you. Whatever job it was, it was going to be difficult and dangerous, and easy to quit, so you felt you had earned your franchise. So unless they were really, really tough schoolkids, I don’t think your last example would qualify. You did have to voluteer to sign up, but there was no indication that all Service jobs were dangerous. And everyone was accepted, regardless of physical condition, so clearly not all jobs would be able to be dangerous. REmember, the theoretical blind man in a wheelchair could get a job counting the hairs on a caterpillar by touch. Not terribly dangerous. But Heinlein, being a proud Naval veteran wrote about the military aspects of things. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/46 "2009-08-28T03:22:59Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Well, maybe I’m not saying it’s impossible, but do you have a specific counterexample (and yes, what we mean by ‘glorifies’ will be the sticking point, but I’m still interested in examples). > But I stand by my main point, which is that nobody wants to admit their favorite movie is ‘totalitarian’ because ‘totalitarian’ or ‘dictatorship’ is a dirty word that we all agree is bad, m’kay? But totalitarianism doesn’t happen because people want to give power to someone saying ‘Let me be your totalitarian, opppressive leader!’ Totalitarianism happens because people want ‘security’, ‘strong leadership’, ‘national pride and respect’, ‘someone who can do what needs to be done to be tough on crime’, ‘someone who will stand up to the Carthaginians (Nazis, communists, trade-unionists, terrorists, drug-pushers, etc.)’. And so movies that advocate for strong personal eadership (not stupid beauracractic laws), being tough on criminals, a powerful military, etc. are implicity advocating moving towards totalitarianism. > > And, again, I’m not saying that an exception is impossible, but you got to admit every military I know of is by its nature a pretty totalitarian organization. So at a minimum, it’s going to be difficult to glorify it without glorifying totalitarianism. But as I said, I’m eager to hear of examples that don’t. You haven’t given an example on your end, why should ANYONE have to give you a counter-example. You’ve made the wild-ass claim, you back it up. I won’t hold my breath for that, however, as it is a ridiculous statement. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/47 "2009-08-28T03:39:13Z")
[_The Turner Diaries._](http://www.johnreilly.info/ttd.htm) The Organization is not only as totalitarian as the Khmer Rouge, but practices genocide on a scale that would have horrified Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Jerseyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jerseyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerseyman)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/48 "2009-08-28T03:52:27Z")
The apocalyptic _Left Behind_ series surely posits a totalitarian Final Victory. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/49 "2009-08-28T04:03:36Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > And, again, I’m not saying that an exception is impossible, but you got to admit every military I know of is by its nature a pretty totalitarian organization. So at a minimum, it’s going to be difficult to glorify it without glorifying totalitarianism. But as I said, I’m eager to hear of examples that don’t. A military that is under civilian authority is not a totalitarian organization by any stretch of the imagination. Nearly every democracy in the world has a military. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/50 "2009-08-28T12:05:27Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Speaking of SM Stirling he has advocated the nuking of Muslims and their genocide. It was on the website Alternate History Discussion Board. This sounds like something taken wildly out of context if it was there at all. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by_ **Curtis LeMay** : > It was a post on that board but I get banned from the board and it’s on a section for members only. Can you tell us the actual forum or even the subject of the thread? I can’t see it in any of Stirling’s posts on AHDB. ps Maybe I’ve missed something? I’ve dropped in on that board before and never realised there was a section that only members could see. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/51 "2009-08-28T13:02:15Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > And pretty much any movie/novel that glorifies war or the military is implicitly totalitarian. That’s what I thought when I saw the pro-Nazi film Saving Private Ryan. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/52 "2009-08-28T13:59:40Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > You did have to voluteer to sign up, but there was no indication that all Service jobs were dangerous. And everyone was accepted, regardless of physical condition, so clearly not all jobs would be able to be dangerous. > > REmember, the theoretical blind man in a wheelchair could get a job counting the hairs on a caterpillar by touch. Not terribly dangerous. > > But Heinlein, being a proud Naval veteran wrote about the military aspects of things. I don’t have the book in front of me, but there was something said in one of the History & Moral Philosophy classes that all service jobs were inherently dangerous, on purpose. Yes, the doctor at recruiting said they’d have to give a blind man in a wheelchair a job counting hairs on a caterpillar, but remember, the doctor **wasn’t** in the service - he was a civilian employee. So he’s not as good a source on how the service works as an H&MP instructor. Heck, just throw in the occasional poisonous caterpillar, and you’d be all set. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/53 "2009-08-28T14:57:07Z")
Re: Starship Troopers. It’s not that they made service inherently dangerous, just that there was no guarantee that any job would be safe. You could end up field testing survival gear on Titan. Or you could work at a research lab, which would be perfectly safe until the Bugs show up and destroy it. It’s not like there was some bureaucrat in charge of making sure that a certain percentage of recruits ended up dead, just that there were dangerous jobs that needed to be done, and if you joined the service you would probably be assigned one of those jobs. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/54 "2009-08-28T15:40:39Z")
It was more than that - if a job wasn’t dangerous, they’d just hire civilians to do it. Dangerous jobs, like working in an electronics research lab on Pluto of all places, which couldn’t have been terribly safe even if you weren’t at war, required people in service. From Fleet Sergeant Ho, the legless recruiter: “So for those who insist on serving their term - but haven’t got what we want and must have - we’ve had to think up a whole list of dirty, nasty, dangerous jobs that will either run 'em home with their tails between their legs and their terms uncompleted…or at least make them remember for the rest of their lives that their citizenship is valuable to them because they’ve paid a high price for it.” “A term of service isn’t a kiddie camp; it’s either real military service, rough and dangerous even in peacetime…or a most unreasonable facsimile thereof. Not a vacation. Not a romantic adventure. Well?” From Major Reid, the OCS H&MP instructor: (my bolding) “And you have forgotten that in peacetime most veterans come from non-combatant auxiliary services and have not been subject to the full rigors of military discipline; they have merely been harried, overworked, **and endangered** - yet their votes count.” From Johnny as narrator: “Civilians are like beans; you buy 'em as needed for any job which merely requires skill and savvy.” ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/55 "2009-08-28T16:27:03Z")
> [@MarcusF](#): > > This sounds like something taken wildly out of context if it was there at all. Maybe although he got banned by the Admin for it. > [@](#): > > Can you tell us the actual forum or even the subject of the thread? I can’t see it in any of Stirling’s posts on AHDB. > > ps Maybe I’ve missed something? I’ve dropped in on that board before and never realised there was a section that only members could see. It was either Chat or Non Political Chat you have to be a member for you to see it. After registering go to Stirling’s account ([joatsimeon@aol.com](mailto:joatsimeon@aol.com)) and go to his latest posts. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/56 "2009-08-28T16:31:19Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > The TV series _Rome_ favored Julius Caesar and Octavian and IMO made the Republicans look weak and stupid. At the least, as I remember it from watching, Julius was assassinated more because of snobbery and jealousy than his megalomania. > . Julius Caesar was opposed by the \*Optimates: \* \*Optimates (singular optimas, The Best of Men, also known as the priests[citation needed] or boni, the Good Men) were the pro-aristocratic faction of the later Roman Republic. They wished to limit the power of the popular assemblies and the Tribunes of the Plebs, and to extend the power of the Senate, which was viewed as more dedicated to the interests of the aristocrats. In particular, they were concerned with the rise of individual generals who, backed by the tribunate, the assemblies and their own soldiers, could shift power from the Senate and aristocracy. They were opposed by the populares. The optimates favored the nobiles (noble families) and opposed the ascension of novi homines (“new men”, usually provincials) into Roman politics. Cicero, a strong supporter of the optimates’ cause, was himself a novus homo, being the first in his family to enter the Senate, and was never fully accepted by the optimates[1]. During the Civil War of 49BC, Julius Caesar, of a respectable old family, contended against a Senate championed by Pompey the Great, a new man. In addition to their political aims, the optimates opposed the extension of Roman citizenship, and sought the preservation of the mos maiorum, the ways of their forefathers. … … Besides Sulla, notable optimates included Lucius Licinius Lucullus, Cato the Younger, Titus Annius Milo, Marcus Calpurnius Bibulus and Marcus Junius Brutus. Though they had opposed him for the entirety of his political career, Pompey the Great also found himself as the leader of the optimates’ faction, once their civil war with Julius Caesar began. Optimates, along with disillusioned populares, who had carried out Caesar’s assassination called themselves Liberatores.\* RAH’s Glory Road sez strongly that a Empress/Dictator is the only way to go. The US Military, (until the Cold War at least) was _anti_-totalitarian. We’d build a great citizen army, send it off to whup the bad guys, then disband 90% or so of it. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/57 "2009-08-28T16:39:35Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It was either Chat or Non Political Chat you have to be a member for you to see it. After registering go to Stirling’s account ([joatsimeon@aol.com](mailto:joatsimeon@aol.com)) and go to his latest posts. BTW, I would strongly discourage anyone who enjoys Stirling’s fiction from seeking out his online writings. (He’s sufficiently out-there as a militarist & general-purpose jerk as to be effectively a troll, even if he doesn’t mean to be. And I for one have been unable to un-read the stuff of his I read on Usenet, which has pretty well barred me from enjoying his books. Not because I think he should be silenced & kept from expressing his views, but because his writing voice is fairly similar both online and in his fiction, and I find the reminders unpleasant.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/58 "2009-08-28T17:01:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Julius Caesar was opposed by the \*Optimates: > \* Right. The Optimates were aristocrats, but they were also opposed to Caesar, or other generals, centralizing power in themselves. They supported the aristocratic republic. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/59 "2009-08-29T18:30:57Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Well, of course there aren’t many works arguing that we should give power to corrupt dictators bent on oppression for personal gain. That’s not how totalitarianism starts, you know. It starts by arguing that things are so bad that only strong trustworthy individuals can protect the common people. > > And that’s pretty easy to find in fiction. Take pretty much any “Dirty Harry” /Chuck Norris/“24”/“Die Hard” -type of movie/TV series where the main character does what has to be done, ignoring the petty rules and restrictions that only favor criminals and hamstring the legitimate authorities. They’re basically arguing against civil rights, meaningful restrictions on police powers, and democratic accountability for authorities. > > In fact, it’s hard to think of any work of fiction involving crime in any way (except the small “Les Miserables” genre of criminals-driven-to-it) that doesn’t implicitly argue for totalitarianism. Maybe the original “Law and Order” sometimes shows a lot of nuance in addressing issues of what the tradeoffs are with civil liberties, but even there, generally in L&O, civil liberties are what lets a perp go free, not what protects people from lazy or pissed-off cops. > > And pretty much any movie/novel that glorifies war or the military is implicitly totalitarian. Agreed. _Watchmen_, for example, was at least neutral towards the idea of “superheros” controlling the fate the world, and I could never see why requiring superheros to follow the laws rather than being their own style of vigilante was a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887/60 "2009-08-29T19:49:29Z")
Isn’t almost _any_ story with a “hero King/Prince” that the population is looking to for peace, salvation etc. pretty much promoting totalitarianism in the form of royal, entitled rule? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-totalitarian-works-of-fiction/507887.md?page=4)