# Pro-vax supporters, the flu vaccine. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434 "2015-11-02T17:33:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/61 "2015-11-03T20:15:05Z")
> [@Foggy](#): > > They are idiots or terribly misinformed.:mad: > > I didn’t used to get it because I don’t care about myself, but I finally realized I was putting others at risk. > > **GET THE SHOT!** Look-you believe in reality, and they believe in ignorance. Who are you to say that your belief system is better than theirs? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/62 "2015-11-03T20:17:55Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > And what does your general knowledge and critical thinking faculty say about this? It does bring to mind the military testing of ‘volunteers’ to see what the effect of radiation may be from atomic/nuclear bombs. The unknown effects and willingness of the government to use people in this way. Not saying this is the case here, but such things are not unheard of, which builds mistrust, which is understandable because such things were actually done. > [@](#): > > What do you believe the hospitals motivation for this would be? And why would everyone continue to administer vaccines by injection if they can be given by inhalation? I was told such devices exists, I have neither confirmed or denied their existence. But for my belief, I have stated it in a way that she believes it to be so, not I. Is their a debating term in false arguments to personalize a point to try tp get a emotional reply??? > [@](#): > > Well, its pretty easy to look up the rate of serious adverse reactions to vaccines - about 3 per million doses. We can also look up the number of deaths to the flu in a years in the US. Quite spiky, but averaging about 30 000 in a year, so about 1 in 10 000. So on the face of it, you seem to be roughy 30 times better off taking the vaccine. Again science :rolleyes:, does not apply to emotional response. > [@](#): > > That is not entirely accurate though, because this only considers flu deaths and not serious complications, which we used for a comparison base with vaccines. So this underestimates the benefits of the vaccine. Also, it only considers your personal odds, and does not include your chances of endangering children, sick or elderly if you do not get vaccinated. > > Stats from the [CDC](http://www.cdc.gov/) > [@](#): > > You are not talking about people having their own beliefs though. You are talking about people trying to have their own facts. Yes free will, and facts are only facts till they are proved wrong. Does the individual have reasonable opportunity to evaluate the validity of a fact from medical science? Each and every one? or does the credibility of medical science rest on the results which seemed to kill her mother. Facts are not satisfying on the personal level for whom that has experienced the opposite. > [@](#): > > It is fine to have different beliefts on the soul, the origin of the universe and the meaning of life. It is not fine to insist that your belief is that your child should not wear a safety belt in the car and is in fact better off on your lap while you drive, and insist that your belief should be respected. Where does one draw the line, you should be forced to have 2 drinks a day. > [@](#): > > Also, there is no “Pro-Vax” side any more than there is a “round-earth” side opposing the people who believe the earth is flat. There is a general knowledge side, and a small group of people with outlandishly different ideas entirely at odds with science and maths . It is what it is. > [@](#): > > Myself, I get the vaccine every year. Quite asides from the severe discomfort and danger of the flu itself, I just don’t have two weeks to spare off my job at the end of the year. By my very rough mental calculation a 3 in a million chance is just about equivalent to the odds of a fatal accident in a 4 hour drive. Sorry about your employer dictating your life, perhaps you should seek a different means of supporting yourself. > [@](#): > > You can’t steer your life around avoiding odds like that. If you feel your lifestyle requires you to get the flu shot to better your odds, I love you for that. Live your life. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/63 "2015-11-03T20:28:51Z")
Once again: You claim that these devices to spread the vaccines throughout the hospital were made known to you by “hospital workers”. _What positions of authority in that hospital did thy hold? What were their jobs?_ ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/64 "2015-11-03T20:34:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Once again: You claim that these devices to spread the vaccines throughout the hospital were made known to you by “hospital workers”. _What positions of authority in that hospital did thy hold? What were their jobs?_ Don’t know, one was without direct contact with patients one was unknown to me. Will be seeing them again this weekend. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/65 "2015-11-03T20:35:31Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] I was told such devices exists, I have neither confirmed or denied their existence. But for my belief, I have stated it in a way that she believes it to be so, not I. Is their a debating term in false arguments to personalize a point to try tp get a emotional reply??? [/QUOTE] Why bring it up then? I mean, there are people who believe the moon landings were hoaxes or that 9/11 was a conspiracy between Jews and the Evil Bush Government, yet those things wouldn’t be brought into a rational discussion unless the person bringing them up was either trying to show how crazy CTers are or they actually believed that there might be something to it. Because some crazy person believes that there are vax sprayers in their hospital or that the government really is doing chemtrails to ensure everyone gets their dose of fluoride or whatever doesn’t mean that they should be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/66 "2015-11-03T20:41:40Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Don’t know, one was without direct contact with patients one was unknown to me. Will be seeing them again this weekend. Then why the hell are you repeating their unsubstantiated wild-eyed rantings? Have you no filters operating between all the crap you hear and the all the crap you say? Do you not think you bare any responsibility _whatsoever_ for what you tell others? ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/67 "2015-11-03T20:46:21Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > It does bring to mind the military testing of ‘volunteers’ to see what the effect of radiation may be from atomic/nuclear bombs. The unknown effects and willingness of the government to use people in this way. Not saying this is the case here, but such things are not unheard of, which builds mistrust, which is understandable because such things were actually done. You do know that every developed nation runs vaccination programmes, right? What exactly would they be looking for that would justify the risk of something like this anyway? > [@kanicbird](#): > > I was told such devices exists, I have neither confirmed or denied their existence. Yes, and what does your critical thinking faculty say about this claim? > [@kanicbird](#): > > But for my belief, I have stated it in a way that she believes it to be so, not I. Is their a debating term in false arguments to personalize a point to try tp get a emotional reply??? I have no idea what you are trying to say here, nor whay you believe it requres three question marks. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Again science :rolleyes:, does not apply to emotional response. You raised a topic of evidence-based medicine, and asked the question "_Or to put it more bluntly, will a annual flu vaccine be responsible for more deaths and poorer health for our population over time then the flu itself will claim?"_. Do not just cry “emotions” when the facts are not to your liking. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes free will, and facts are only facts till they are proved wrong. Does the individual have reasonable opportunity to evaluate the validity of a fact from medical science? Each and every one? or does the credibility of medical science rest on the results which seemed to kill her mother. Facts are not satisfying on the personal level for whom that has experienced the opposite. In medicine, we use the facts as best we can determine them. There is a constant attempt to refine our understanding of the fact, and to improve our ability to apply them. What, we should go back to bleeding people and lobotomies? > [@kanicbird](#): > > Where does one draw the line, you should be forced to have 2 drinks a day. Normally we draw the line where you are about to inflict self-harm or harm to others in the case of individuals not responsible for themselves, or when you risk inflicting harm on others for adults. Which is definitly the case here. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Sorry about your employer dictating your life, perhaps you should seek a different means of supporting yourself. I am sorry? Where on earth did you get that I have no choice in my life? I work hard to earn long vacations and a good wage. > [@kanicbird](#): > > If you feel your lifestyle requires you to get the flu shot to better your odds, I love you for that. Live your life. Actually, not getting horribly sick, possibly dead and not infection other people requires me to get the flu shot. Not what I’d call a lifestyle issue. I mean, not being a psychopath and all. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/68 "2015-11-03T22:04:10Z")
[QUOTE=BeeGee] Are these REAL healthcare professionals that you can verify in the real world or do they just play nurses on Facebook? [/QUOTE] I’ve encountered alleged nurses online from time to time who profess loony antivax views (along with the odd physician). The vast majority of nurses take their jobs and responsibilities seriously. > **[Nurses Who Vaccinate](https://nurseswhovaccinate.org/)** > > Evidence Based, Public Health Advocates within the workplace, community, and social media > **[Should All Nurses Be Forced To Get Flu Vaccinations?](https://www.nursetogether.com/flu-season-all-nurses-must-be-nurses-who-vaccinate/)** > > In the midst of the flu season, many hospitals and health centers have required all of their employees, including nurses, to get a flu shot or flu vaccination. They must get the flu shot or be forced… > **[A Nurse Practitioner’s Journey Leaving the Anti-Vaccination Movement](https://www.voicesforvaccines.org/i-used-to-be-an-anti-vaccine-nurse/)** > > As a pediatric nurse practitioner, I have given thousands of vaccines to children. But most people don’t know something very important about me. I have a history with vaccinations that I have kept… > [@kanicbird](#): > > Again science, does not apply to emotional response. Evidence and logic may not have the desired effect. In which case, the reality of having to get a flu shot, or else wear a respiratory mask at all times around patients (or get fired) is bound to overcome such an “emotional response” in a health care worker. And if it doesn’t, then they are free to seek employment in another profession. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/69 "2015-11-03T23:23:30Z")
I believe I have a responsibility to get one every year since I live alone. It sucks having a cold when you live alone. It’s hell when you’re sicker than that. I had the flu once fifteen years ago, and I’ve vowed to never let it happen to me again if I can help it. Plus, I don’t have to pay out-of-pocket for it. And they jab us right there at my workplace. I have no excuse. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/70 "2015-11-04T00:40:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Don’t know, one was without direct contact with patients one was unknown to me. Will be seeing them again this weekend. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then why the hell are you repeating their unsubstantiated wild-eyed rantings? Have you no filters operating between all the crap you hear and the all the crap you say? Do you not think you bare any responsibility _whatsoever_ for what you tell others? **czarcasm**. Old Pal. You’re asking rhetorical questions to someone who you have known for 10+ years. He **DOESN’T HAVE CRAP FILTERS OPERATING**. The answers that you get from **kanicbird** are what you always get from him. Please don’t waste your time. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/71 "2015-11-04T00:48:30Z")
I have rheumatoid arthritis. I am immunocompromised due to the meds I take to control my condition. If I get the flu, I can die. I had the REAL flu many years ago. It sucked. If you don’t get your painless flu shot and give me flu, I will haunt you for the rest of your life and possibly many years after that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/72 "2015-11-04T00:51:56Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > **czarcasm**. Old Pal. You’re asking rhetorical questions to someone who you have known for 10+ years. He **DOESN’T HAVE CRAP FILTERS OPERATING**. The answers that you get from **kanicbird** are what you always get from him. Please don’t waste your time. I’ve got plenty of time. What I don’t have is the disposition to give him a free pass to spread crap without opposition. It may be a break-even game at best…but sometimes breaking even is much better than the alternative. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/73 "2015-11-04T00:58:05Z")
I got mine. Herd immunity can’t work if the herd doesn’t participate. It makes me very nervous that these health workers are so cavalier with the health of their patients. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/74 "2015-11-04T01:08:18Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Don’t know, one was without direct contact with patients one was unknown to me. Will be seeing them again this weekend. You can ask him for medical advice when he takes a break from mopping the floor. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/75 "2015-11-04T02:24:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I learned that the ‘crazy’ one had their mother die following the best advice of medical science. That wound has not healed, and is the root of her mistrust in the flu vaccine. That is the root, the anti-vax stance is just a symptom. Her having peace with her mother’s passing is more to the ultimate goal then getting her to accept the flu vaccine IMHO. > > But if you know her and want to say that they must have the flu vaccine or else humanity will suffer for her sin as she will burn in hell forever for it, go ahead, as that is how she would view it, as equally dismiss it as you would. She is operating on a emotional level and that is how she is viewing things. > > Operating on emotions =/= ignorance; Operating on emotions = human. Unless you are willing to deal with that you are not fighting ignorance. My father also died following the best advice of medical science, and I’ve had various other friends and relatives endure unfortunate side effects from treatments like surgery and chemotherapy. That doesn’t mean I bitterly reject every single piece of medical science, nor do I believe that unknown conspirators are spraying vaccines into the heating vents. I mean, why would they be urging people to get the shots on top of that? If everyone gets the vaccine without knowing it, obviously they won’t get any additional protection from a flu shot, meaning they won’t believe flu shots have any effect and will quit getting them. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/76 "2015-11-04T02:34:00Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > And they jab us right there at my workplace. You got it in the workplace?!:eek: DAMN that must’ve hurt. :eek: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/77 "2015-11-04T04:48:20Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Plus, I don’t have to pay out-of-pocket for it. And they jab us right there at my workplace. I have no excuse. Me either; I haven’t paid for a flu shot in 7 years. Since I work for a healthcare company who gives flu shots at our clinics, they show up and give them to us for free each year. My favorites are my idiot coworkers who use the logic of “Well, when I got a flu shot, I got the flu. When I didn’t get the flu shot, I didn’t get the flu. So I don’t get the flu shot.” Of course, I suspect what they’re calling the “flu” is actually some sort of gastroenteritis, and not actual influenza, so it’s totally not even an apples-to-apples comparison. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/78 "2015-11-04T12:00:07Z")
> [@bump](#): > > … > My favorites are my idiot coworkers who use the logic of “Well, when I got a flu shot, I got the flu. When I didn’t get the flu shot, I didn’t get the flu. So I don’t get the flu shot.” Of course, I suspect what they’re calling the “flu” is actually some sort of gastroenteritis, and not actual influenza, so it’s totally not even an apples-to-apples comparison. You know, that might be the best grass-roots way to promote the vaccines, to challenge people when they call any short term illness with a fever “the flu”. Well, not “challenge”, but point out that if they’d had the flu, they would have been out of work longer than two days and feeling just fine now. If people understand that influenza is not just a bad cold, can be dangerous, they might be more likely to get the vaccine. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/79 "2015-11-04T14:13:43Z")
> [@j666](#): > > You know, that might be the best grass-roots way to promote the vaccines, to challenge people when they call any short term illness with a fever “the flu”. Well, not “challenge”, but point out that if they’d had the flu, they would have been out of work longer than two days and feeling just fine now. > > If people understand that influenza is not just a bad cold, can be dangerous, they might be more likely to get the vaccine. Yes, and a huge problem is that it is common to call a mild stomach bug “the flu” when it’s not actually influenza. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434/80 "2015-11-04T17:06:56Z")
> [@j666](#): > > If people understand that influenza is not just a bad cold, can be dangerous, they might be more likely to get the vaccine. And that’s why the “controversy” comes down to two sides: A) People who think influenza is a bad cold or a tummy ache B) People who know what influenza actually is, either because they’ve had it or they had to take care of someone who’s had it. If there’s anyone from Group B here who doesn’t want a flu shot, let them speak up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pro-vax-supporters-the-flu-vaccine/736434.md?page=5)