Probability of a currency collapse within the next 3 decades?

They are debt notes though. Every dollar in existence is “backed” by a dollar off debt. Currency only comes into existence when debt comes into existence.

I only use dollars as a reference point because there’s no where that you can go and purchase goods or services with silver (even though silver and gold are real money. In fact, they are the only things that the Constitution allows to be money.)

As for the short term drop in price, I’m not concerned about that. I’m only concerned with long term preservation of wealth, which precious metals do an excellent job at (and paper currencies do a very poor job at).

I would guess the chance of USD being completely devalued in the next 3 decades at less than 10% so I guess that has me voting a 1. The only way I see it happening is if the entire government pursues a course to try and destroy itself. Basically, racking up larger amounts of debt, moving the fed funds rate negative, and then defaulting on the deficit would probably get us close. Considering our current president is taking these some of these steps and has talked about doing the others I think there is a possibility of it happening.

As far as the way to prepare for the collapse I think it is much more likely we’ll devolve into a barter society then a functional economy without fiat currancy. Stockpiling precious metals could be useful in the long term but I think focusing on getting through the transition is more important. There are two paths I see, one is focusing on buying land primarily that can be used for production of barter products (lumber, food, and minerals) the other is building a business that is able to take those primary inputs and turn then into something else valuable that is located close to its primary input. In my case I make beer, wine and spirits. When I start my next distillery I’m looking at working with my brother-in-law to locate the distillery near his potato and barely farm.

Of course, if you are looking to own and use productive land you’ll need to be able to do the work yourself so learning the skills to farm or whatever will be equally important. The same goes for the secondary business. Learning to make furniture will be critical if you want to own a furniture business next to an oak forest. There are lots of these types of cottage business that will also be viable if the world doesn’t collapse so find you passion making artisan cheese and then build you apocalypse plan from there.

How often do you see pre 1965 US quarters in circulation? Almost never! That’s Greshsms Law for you which states that people hoard valuable money and spend debased money when they have the same face value.

When the USD fails, it will no longer be useful to speak of the value of silver in terms of dollars. The market will determine what silver and gold are worth.

A currency failure I believe will see the end of globalization and a return to a much more local way of living. Having some sort of local economy in place as you describe is extremely important.

If the USD fails, it will take other currencies with it, and there won’t be anything resembling a “market” in the ensuing chaos. In such a situation I’d much rather have my AR-15 with a pile of ammo than a bag of gold coins.

This, a million times.

Marcus, you really should read this thread. It might straighten out some of your confusion.

So if that is what you believe then that is how you should invest. You are probably not going to be able to stockpile enough to live forever on your wealth so you need you money to he able to earn you money probably along side your labor. Why would someone who owns a viable farm that is providing them food for their family trade it to you for gold? You would be much better off trying to buy the farm now when the farmer can spend that money moving to the city and investing it in the stock market versus when the economy has been destroyed.

Oh and don’t forget you’ll need to be able to defend your land when the time comes so either have enough food to pay your guards in it or enough ammo to do it yourself.

The “debt” thing has been repeatedly debunked. It exists only as a fringe buzz word.

And 20 years is “short term”? If you invested your savings in gold in 1980 and needed to spend a lot of it around 2000, you would not have been happy.

And an economy based around gold DOES NOT WORK with these ridiculous swings that gold goes thru in the SHORT TERM. (Never mind there isn’t enough of it. Or that puts the control of our monetary supply into the hands of the gold producers like Russia.)

Speaking of which. The Russian disinformation farms on the Internet really like to spew out nonsense about how great gold is. You really have to be careful of your sources. A basic test: does it cast doubt on the stability of the US political or economic system?

And as I mentioned above - silver is way more volatile than gold.

THE largest. Over 60% of the world’s reserve currency is USD, more than all the other’s combined.

I feel like you think that this means currency is inherently worthless because it is “backed by debt”. Debt only comes into existence when there is an underlying asset to be traded. There is no reason that asset has to be gold. It can be as simple as you and I both have something to trade and a dollar represents a convenient medium of exchange.

And worth noting the dollar-centricity of the global economy has increased just in recent years, contrary to click bait type information ‘X countries plan to replace the USD as world reserve currency’. That’s not what’s been happening. And that’s even before considering the growth of China as % of world GDP with a currency de facto tied to the USD. The ‘USD sphere’ has gotten bigger and bigger.

Which carries some risks. Because US GDP is a lower % of world GDP even as the ‘USD sphere’ expands. There’s potential for instability in that situation. Also, arguably a good deal of populist angst in the US, left and right, has roots in currency relationships. Greater accumulation of USD reserves by foreign countries, to insulate themselves from currency instability (of their own) in a more USD-centric world, has to mean a US current account deficit despite a strong USD. The trade patterns behind that are part though not all of what fuels greater inequality and particular depressed areas in the US even when US GDP growth overall has been decent by rich world standards in recent times.

So there are some real issues to consider about the USD, its role in the world, and all the effects of that on the US. But while no one can rule out or in what will happen, so pointless to argue about it too much, ‘currency collapse’ isn’t really the issue. Steady and relatively predictable, especially in recent decades, inflation is pretty much irrelevant to ‘currency collapse’. Also if only holding precious metals is the supposed antidote to ‘coming currency collapse’, then the prognosticator of ‘currency collapse’ must be saying all currencies will collapse. Otherwise, holdings of other currencies would also diversify against the effect on investors with USD costs of the value of the USD*.

Precious metals could be beneficial in outlier cases (nobody can actually state the probability, even if they’re convinced they can, except it’s small) of big global collapse. The rest of the time they have an expected real return that’s zero at best, and loads of price noise: risk for no return. In the real world of no crystal balls, the reasonable debate about precious metals is about whether they should be a small % of portfolio or 0%.

*which is somewhat limited historically anyway. IOW it’s pretty different than the impact of value of USD in GBP on say a UK investor thinking of owning USD assets, especially say bonds denominated in USD (stock values are less closely tied to currency values). If the USD weakens a lot relative to GBP that would just be a commensurate loss for the investor who invests in USD denominated bonds to meet future costs in GBP. The impact of USD FX value on people who need to meet living costs using USD isn’t as direct, because while the % of US economy accounted for by import/export is higher than it used to be, it’s still not that high. An say 20% drop in the USD’s trade weighted value would have a much lower % impact on overall living costs in USD in the US, look at past graphs of weighted USD FX value and USD inflation and you can see that.

Why do nutzoid people love to fantasize about stuff like this? It’s no fun and it’s not going to happen.

Because of my religion, I wasted my childhood waiting for Armageddon. It’s friggin’ pointless. Why do people waste their time with stuff like this?

Yeah, we’ve had threads about the “why” of this stuff. Maybe find one of the old ones or start a new one.

It is amazing. Flat Earth nonsense is growing due to the Internet. Although you can use the same Internet to verify via web cams what areas on this “flat Earth” are light or dark. There’s even cams on Foucault pendulums rotating at different rates in different directions depending on latitude and hemisphere. Or use sites that allow you to watch with your naked eye to find when satellites are going to pass over you.

Gold bug stuff is so easily dismissed and yet I have yet to see one here who realized all the things wrong with a gold so-called standard.

most of the time it’s because they truly believe they’re “Smarter” than everyone else (especially the government) and have the “real” truth.

and crypto fans seem to want to believe that after fiat currencies all fail and we transition over to crypto, they (the geeks) will finally be lauded as the heroes they think they deserve to be.

Looking ahead 30 years is far too difficult. But I think there’s a fair chance that ten years, or perhaps even five years, from now some of the comments in this thread will appear short-sighted. Gold and silver (and copper) have been widely used as money for over 3000 years. China is famous for its paper money 900 years ago, but that paper was itself a promise by China’s government to redeem for metal. As late as the 1960’s the world price for gold was still the $35 rate set by the U.S. Congress. Yes, central bank “fiat” money has been successful for almost 50 years. But past performance is no guarantee of future results.

Nobody knows how the world’s currencies will evolve. There is a key difference between economics and other sciences. Nobody needs to drop balls from atop the Tower of Pisa anymore — (yes I know even Galileo probably never did this!) — been there; done that; know the answer. But the human constructs that economists seek to understand are constantly evolving.

For example, interest rates were once a useful indicator, informing us about the supply of and demand for ready cash. Now interest rates are effectively fixed by central banks. Are the unusually low interest rates we see today — what one financial analyst calls “the bubble in ‘risk-free’ assets” — cause for fear? Maybe, maybe not. One frequently hears analysts add “MMT” to their vocabulary today; I’m not sure if they’re celebrating a wonderful new paradigm, or being sarcastic!

The U.S. remains the world’s strong prestige currency. Other major economies suffer the same possible perils as the U.S.: high debt, low interest rates. When people wonder about a possible “currency collapse” I do NOT think they’re talking about USD-$ plunging against EUR-€ and GBP-£. The worry is about a global collapse, perhaps with a cycle of devaluations or general inflation. (BTW, Japan is often cited as proof that high debt and low interest are not problems. But the Japanese economy has special strengths that many of the Western economies lack.)

I think OP is wrong to worry about the dollar “constantly being devalued.” Inflation is about 2%, just where many policy makers want it. (Some would like the flexibility offered by slightly higher inflation.) In normal times, you’d make up for the lost value of cash with interest on your cash savings. (Gold and silver don’t pay interest.)

Of course in these abnormal times, savings accounts do not pay enough interest to beat inflation. So you get a higher return by buying stocks or junk bonds. Maybe. Do the low interest rates tell a supply/demand story? The world is awash in money, while demand is low (even Berkshire-Hathaway can’t find anything better to do with its cash than buy back its own stock).

A bigger problem with the low interest rates is that central banks have lost their main tool for combating recession. From 1989 to 1993 the Fedfunds rate was lowered from 10% to 3% to combat recession. In the early 2000s the rate was lowered from 6.5% to 1%. From summer of 2007 to the end of 2008, the rate was dropped from over 5% to about 0%. See similar responses in other recessions. The Fedfunds rate is only 2% now: there’s not enough room to drop it. (Deliberate inflation may be the simplest way to lower real interest rates!) Deficit spending is the other way governments fight recession. But we now have a trillion-dollar deficit in good times! For the next recession … up the deficit to TWO-trillion dollars?

And cryptocurrencies — increasingly seen as a way to evade taxes and regulations — might reduce demand for central banks’ money.

NO, I think some of the confidence shown in this thread is overly sanguine. Most individual investors are already diversified into hard assets (including real estate) by virtue of home ownership, but renters should put some of their savings into a “hedge” asset. Central banks themselves understand this: “After a relatively modest net increase of 13.9 tons in July, central banks globally took in a net 57.3 tons of gold in August.

gold, silver, and copper were used as money 3000 years ago because people thought it was magical.

Cite, please?

Isn’t gold itself the most spectacular example of a currency fail?

It used to be used everywhere and now no country in the world has a gold standard despite ample opportunity to do so over the past century. What does the OP know that isn’t obvious to the bankers and economists of literally every country in the world?

I’d like to reply to this in particular. I’ve already said that the government “massages” the inflation statistics. They have every incentive to understate the amount of inflation. And even with the governments falsified low inflation stats, bank savings accounts don’t provide enough interest to make up for inflation. In a fiat currency system, savers are punished.

Here’s a passage from a book from an investor named Mike Maloney,

Here’s CPI inflation vs ‘Shadow Stat’ inflation (Shadow Stat uses the same inflation methods that were used in the 1980s and prior).
http://www.shadowstats.com/imgs/sgs-cpi.gif?hl=ad&t=1573654784

Here’s the “Big Mac Index” vs the CPI
https://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2017/11/1/3948-1509552555842769.jpg