# probiotics, how much woo? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 2, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252 "2013-12-02T00:44:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/41 "2013-12-03T21:49:41Z")
> [@Deegeea](#): > > This link has a good summary, especially in the “What the Science Says” section: > > [http://nccam.nih.gov/health/probiotics/introduction.htm](http://nccam.nih.gov/health/probiotics/introduction.htm) From the same article: \*"Key Points ``` Although some probiotic formulations have shown promise in research, strong scientific evidence to support specific uses of probiotics for most conditions is lacking."* ``` ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/42 "2013-12-03T22:47:49Z")
Sure, Probiotics don’t cure everything they are promoted as- but neither do antibiotics, and who call them ‘woo”? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/43 "2013-12-04T00:25:37Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > And I wonder why anyone would need probiotics to “replenish gut flora” after a bout of norovirus, which shouldn’t be treated with antibiotics (at least by docs who know what they’re doing). Two weeks of severe diarrhea, to the point of rectal bleeding, and eating absolutely nothing whatsoever for a week, will thoroughly screw up your GI tract. Basically, my body not only tried to “flush out” the norovirus by copious use of bodily fluids, it also apparently “washed away” a lot of the normal gut fauna. Admittedly, mine was an extreme bout of the disease. Spending a week in the hospital unable to hold down even plain water while producing quarts to gallons of diarrhea daily sort of sucked. Yay, IV’s. The gastroenterologist recommended some probiotics as part of restoring my system to normal function, in no small part because I couldn’t handle eating yogurt, which was his first suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/44 "2013-12-04T01:57:20Z")
First off **DrDeth** my apologies for not realizing what was and what was not behind the wall. The same material hower is included in **Deegeea** ’s link. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, Probiotics don’t cure everything they are promoted as- but neither do antibiotics, and who call them ‘woo”? > [@Ulfreida](#): > > … people who feel that probiotics address all sorts of human ills caused by (poor general immunity due to the feeding of antibiotics to livestock)(the host of intestinal disorders like gluten allergies etc. now so popular)(autism, ADD, cancer, leprosy). … **DrDeth** , the issue is the magnitude of the chasm between what they do do and what some claim they do, specifically the claims asked about in the op. “Strong evidence” of probiotic efficacy only exists for a very few specific indications. “Promising” means that there is really no good evidence at all, just good reasons to speculate. Even the “substantial” translates to a good amount of conflicting evidence. Here are some details on the atopic dermatis front: [Maybe.](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091674902913734) > [@](#): > > A combination of L rhamnosus 19070-2 and L reuteri DSM 122460 was beneficial in the management of AD. [Maybe](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091674906017982) [not](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2222.2006.02513.x/abstract?systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+be+disrupted+on+7+December+from+10%3A00-15%3A00+BST+%2805%3A00-10%3A00+EDT%29+for+essential+maintenance&userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=). > [@](#): > > Early probiotic supplementation with L acidophilus did not reduce the risk of AD in high-risk infants and **was associated with increased allergen sensitization in infants receiving supplements**. (Bolding mine.) > [@](#): > > We found no clinical or immunological effect of the probiotic bacteria used in infants with AD. Our results indicate that oral supplementation with these probiotic bacterial strains will not have a significant impact on the symptoms of infantile AD. [Meta-analysis](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091674907021720) [says](http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8474017) … maybe some modest benefit in prevention of atopic dermatitis by giving the probiotics to women before they give birth. > [@the second](#): > > The completed meta-analysis of the seven studies shows a significant risk reduction for atopic eczema in children aged 2–7 years by the administration of probiotics during pregnancy (reduction 5·7 %; P = 0·022). However, this effect was only significant for lactobacilli (reduction 10·6 %; P = 0·045), but not for a mixture of various bacterial strains as probiotics (difference 3·06 %, P = 0·204). In conclusion, the meta-analysis shows that the administration of lactobacilli during pregnancy prevents atopic eczema in children aged from 2 to 7 years. However, a mixture of various bacterial strains does not affect the development of atopic eczema, independent of whether they contain lactobacilli or not. So certain probiotics used prenatally can modestly reduce the frequency of atopic dermatitis, presumably by impacting what biota gets established in the first place. No good evidence that it does anything once atopic dermatitis (or the microbiota) is already established. Do you get a sense of how wide the gulf is between what the evidence actually is and the claims being made that using who knows what probiotics can impact autism, celiac disease, allergies, cancer, etc.? There is real hard science research that strongly suggests that changes in the Western microbiota is associated with a variety of allergic and autoimmune diseases … even research that shows that gut bacteria play a major role in the efficiacy of various [cancer therapeutics.](http://www.sciencemag.org/content/342/6161/921.summary) The science will likley evolve to points where more can be said and specific courses of action can be advised to impact the nature of our microbiomes (which may include some use of some certain probiotics in specific circumstances); I believe it will. But the “probiotics good and can cure all” mentality is woo that harms the cause of figuring out what real roles they may have. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/45 "2013-12-04T02:03:56Z")
Not what most people are thinking of (or selling) in terms of pro-biotics, but worm infestations may end up playing a role in treatment of inflammatory bowel disease, and possibly other auto-immune conditions. > **[For the Good of the Gut: Can Parasitic Worms Treat Autoimmune Diseases?](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/helminthic-therapy-mucus/)** > > Helminths could suppress immune disorders by promoting healthy mucus production in the intestine This article focuses on mucus, but there is a lot of work out there to suggest that auto-immune diseases lacking the acustomed challenges. (Hygeine hypothesis, etc). Weinstock’s work focuses on the immune system, not mucus, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/46 "2013-12-04T02:57:20Z")
An additional comment on the op itself. Those people are placing probiotics as the cure for the effects of endemic antibiotic exposure (via the big food industry), exposures to antibiotics from early childhood on, and the additive intergenerational effects on our microbiomes, our crappy diets inadequate in fruits, vegatables, and whole grains, the relative paucity of diversity in our microbiomes and the impact of not being exposed to enough of “the right sort of dirt.” I agree with the identified problem. But not with probiotics as representing any sort of solution. The analogy I’d make is to the history of lake Erie. It had a lack of normal life in it and was instead overgrown with algae, to the point it was considered “dead.” The reason was pollution and in particular excessive phophorus leading to algal overgrowth which then died and created anoxic areas as they decomposed. Throwing few thousand trout, pike, or walleye, even tens of thousands, in the lake would not have helped much. Revitalizing the lake occurred by changing the environment of the lake, limiting the amount of phophorus and raw sewage entering it. Once that was done fish populations, diverse fish populations, gradually recovered. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/47 "2013-12-04T04:44:07Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Well, I’m taking 'em, because my guts are always giving me trouble. I just use what I buy for the goats, though. My husband did a bit of research and said there is almost a 100% match between this brand and human-marketed brands, in terms of organisms. Much cheaper too. “He say…medicine…is for _goat_.” – Tom Hanks character in _The Terminal_ ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/48 "2014-01-06T18:24:40Z")
The latest: [http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0084877#pone-0084877-g004](http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0084877#pone-0084877-g004) > [@](#): > > Lactobacillus reuteri Consumption Increases Testicular Weight of Mice Fed with Normal Diet > > **We observed unusually large testes and social dominance behaviors in male mouse models while feeding probiotic yogurt or purified lactic acid bacteria during obesity and cancer studies** (Figure 1a). To test specific effects of probiotics on testes, outbred Swiss mice on normal (control) diet were given Lactobacillus reuteri ATCC 6475 using a dosage of 3.5×105 organisms/mouse/day starting at 2 months of age and their testes were weighed at 3, 5, 7 and 10 months later. At each time-point the weight of testes from mice consuming probiotics was significantly higher than that of control mice. Specifically, at five months (CD vs CD+LR, P = 0.0408) (Fig. 1b), seven months (CD vs CD+LR, P = 0.0328) (Fig. 1c), nine months (CD vs CD+LR, P = 0.0178) (Fig. 1e), and 12 months of age (CD vs CD+LR, P = 0.0062) (Fig. 1e) **the statistical significance of testes weight difference between probiotic-treated and non-treated groups of mice progressively increased with age**. When the testes weight values were adjusted for body weight (testis weight/body weight ratio) the L. reuteri effect was more pronounced in all different age time-points examined (Fig. S1). While feeding of L. reuteri consistently increased the gonadal weights, consumption of a non-pathogenic strain of Escherichia coli (E. coli) K12 organisms did not affect testicular weight (CD+E.coli vs CD+LR, P = 0.026) (Fig. 1c) or the testicular/body weight ratio when compared at age 7 months, confirming the specificity of the probiotic organism effect (Fig. S1). > > L. reuteri Induces Elevation of Serum Testosterone > > Given that the Leydig cell is the main cellular source of testosterone, we next examined the effect of the probiotic organism in testosterone serum levels of mice at the age of 5 months. **We found that mice eating L. reuteri had profoundly increased levels of circulating testosterone regardless of the type of diet they consumed** (CD mice vs CD+LR, P = 0.0266) and NWD-fed groups of mice (NWD vs NWD+LR, P = 0.0037) (Fig. 4b). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/49 "2014-01-06T18:26:00Z")
… how do you weigh a mouse testicle? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/50 "2014-01-06T19:24:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > … how do you weigh a mouse testicle? Weigh yourself. Weigh yourself with the mouse’s testicle in your hand. Math. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/51 "2014-01-06T19:25:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > … how do you weigh a mouse testicle? On a tiny scale (after dissection). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/52 "2014-01-06T19:50:34Z")
Kind of hard to weigh them again six months later if you’ve already dissected them. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SerafinaPekala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@SerafinaPekala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SerafinaPekala)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/53 "2014-01-06T19:56:23Z")
After suffering thru a bout of C.Dif. last year from overly prescribed antibiotics for surgery, I take bovine colostrum powder every day to (theoretically) replenish the flora in the gut. Since the gut is the place where immunity is established, it makes sense. I havent been sick since taking it. _touch wood_ ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/54 "2014-01-06T22:07:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Kind of hard to weigh them again six months later if you’ve already dissected them. 😉 These meese gots big balls. Just have them lift the left one onto the scale, then the right. Operant conditioning. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/55 "2014-01-07T00:09:49Z")
> [@SerafinaPekala](#): > > Since the gut is the place where immunity is established And here I had assumed that immunity was established in the immune system. Got a cite? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/56 "2014-01-07T04:36:10Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > And here I had assumed that immunity was established in the immune system. > > Got a cite? [From wikipédia article on passive immunity:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_immunity) > [@](#): > > Passive immunity is also provided through the transfer of IgA antibodies found in breast milk that are transferred to the gut of the infant, protecting against bacterial infections, until the newborn can synthesize its own antibodies.[4] ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/57 "2014-01-07T12:57:11Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > The lady who prompted my OP was of the belief that the common lack of the proper intestinal flora had been decisively linked to autism and learning disorders. You must ask for a cite. And if she gives you one, you must evaluate it. Is it based on double blind studies? Apparently, the very first population of intestinal flora happens in the birth canal. Babies delivered by Cesarian don’t get that. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252/58 "2014-01-07T14:03:11Z")
> [@SerafinaPekala](#): > > I take bovine colostrum powder every day to (theoretically) replenish the flora in the gut. Since the gut is the place where immunity is established, it makes sense. I havent been sick since taking it. _touch wood_ So, none of your stomachs are upset? 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/probiotics-how-much-woo/675252.md?page=2)