# Problem is, it ain't the 1%, it's the 5+% **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686 "2011-11-21T21:27:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/21 "2011-11-22T01:31:00Z")
I think the Occupy movement should _definitely_ make this issue about race. This is a _great_ way to win supporters from the mainstream, an _excellent_ method of inspiring otherwise-uncertain people to jump over the fence and join the Occupy movement. There is no way it will backfire and turn people off. No way at all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/22 "2011-11-22T01:37:53Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The most powerful lobbies in DC are not GE or APPLE, they are groups like NAACP or NAR or the unions. You base that on what? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/23 "2011-11-22T01:38:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It should be overturned. Individual contributions and expenditures are acts of expressive speech and should be protected by the First Amendment. 😕 Then, you mean it _(Buckley v. Valeo)_ should **not** be overturned? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/24 "2011-11-22T01:49:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m a Hispanic male with income in the top 5%. My father was an immigrant from Central America whose childhood home had a dirt floor. > > I’m very inconvenient for this discussion. Not at all. Welcome to the class struggle, brother. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/25 "2011-11-22T02:04:59Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Not at all. Welcome to the class struggle, brother. There doesn’t have to be one, as such. But different classes with their own interests – sometimes in common, sometimes in conflict – are real enough. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/26 "2011-11-22T02:52:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You base that on what? Spending and electorate power, even in the money race AARP is in the top 10 every year. Lobbyists [http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php](http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php) Pacs [http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/toppacs.php?Type=C&cycle=2010](http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/toppacs.php?Type=C&cycle=2010) I am missing the point of this are you claiming that NAR, AARP, IEBW and NRA are ineffectual? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/27 "2011-11-22T03:03:12Z")
[For reference, here are the cutoffs:](http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/10/19/what-percent-are-you/) 1% \>= $510,000 5% \>= $220,000 10% \>= $160,000 > [@The Hamster King](#): > > The brilliance of the 99% strategy is that its focused on reminding successful workers that they’re still WORKERS, and as such are as much at the mercy of economic forces beyond their control as a guy driving a tow truck or a woman working the register at a supermarket. But it’s not working. The upper middle class graduates of Ivy’s and other elite colleges working in Manhattan law firms, investment banks and professional services firms do not, by and large, identify with the guys banging drums out in Zuccotti Park. The problem has nothing to do with income level. If I study hard, go to a good school, work 70+ hours a week at a job for 15 years, why shouldn’t I be earning $150,000 a year? What does that have to do with how much some waitress earns in Nebraska? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/28 "2011-11-22T03:13:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m a Hispanic male with income in the top 5%. My father was an immigrant from Central America whose childhood home had a dirt floor. > > I’m very inconvenient for this discussion. Do Hispanic-males-whose-fathers-were-immigrants-from-Central-America-whose-childhood-homes-had-dirt-floors make up the same proportion of the 5% as they do of the general population? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/29 "2011-11-22T03:20:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Then, you mean it _(Buckley v. Valeo)_ should **not** be overturned? Buckley v. Valeo upheld the campaign contributions limitations. That is what should be overturned. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/30 "2011-11-22T03:21:48Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Do Hispanic-males-whose-fathers-were-immigrants-from-Central-America-whose-childhood-homes-had-dirt-floors make up the same proportion of the 5% as they do of the general population? Should they? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/31 "2011-11-22T03:34:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Should they? Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/32 "2011-11-22T03:34:35Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Yeah, if you extend it to 10%, a not insignificant number of your protesters and their families are going to be implicated. What about in the opposite direction…1%, .01%, .001%…:eek: Who’s implicated then? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/33 "2011-11-22T03:38:16Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Economist] Do Hispanic-males-whose-fathers-were-immigrants-from-Central-America-whose-childhood-homes-had-dirt-floors make up the same proportion of the 5% as they do of the general population? [/QUOTE] Well, if you substitute ‘Mexico’ for ‘Central-America’ then I’d fit into that category…which would mean that posters to this thread constitute around 5%. 😛 [QUOTE=BG] The OWSers don’t seem to understand, quite yet, that it is that they have taken on, that they must defeat to win. Not to destroy it – progressives do not need to destroy the overclass as a class and it would be crazy to try, it is a class that performs valuable functions. Remember why Mandela was very concerned that the white people should not be frightened out of post-Apartheid South Africa. [/QUOTE] I think that OWSers, in general, have a lot of understanding challenges, but I doubt this is one of them. Personally, what I think they fail to grasp is that Wall Street™ isn’t the real problem…the problem is in Washington, regardless of whether you are a conservative or a liberal. Any real changes, if any, are going to happen there. I don’t know what to tell you about the vast, white/rich overclass, other than to get out more and stop frequenting the kinds of web sites you seem to enjoy. Dwarf porn is really the key. > [@](#): > > No, to win, progressives need only put an end to the disproportionate political power of the overclass, to the fact that it wields influence far out of proportion to its numbers (and, consciously or not, in its own class interests as a general rule). But that’s a daunting enough challenge by itself. No, to win, what progressives need to do is to appeal to the vast, mixed up moderate/middle ground voters, and get them fired up about voting for progressives and progressive political agendas. THAT would be useful. Trying to combat some shadowy white overclass is both futile and makes folks seem a bit, well, crazy. Like those guys who mutter to themselves on the subway. If you are into conspiracy theories, try lizard porn as an alternative, and embrace you new leather wearing, tail swishing, toothy overlords! -XT ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/34 "2011-11-22T03:40:42Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Why not? All kinds of reasons. Lower family support for education, lower expectations for their children, family history causing lower ambition, worse nutrition… I am sure you can think of many others. If you’re born poor, there are disadvantages. But they can be overcome. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/35 "2011-11-22T03:51:43Z")
Well, it’s a question of which progressive political agendas. Abortion? Gay rights? Feminism? Doing quite well, thanks. A living wage? Redistribution of wealth? Less well. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/36 "2011-11-22T03:55:19Z")
'Ere now, you had dirt! God, we’d have loved to have dirt, all we had was lava gravel with shards of feldspar and uranium mine debris. And damned lucky to have it! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/37 "2011-11-22T04:04:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > 'Ere now, you had dirt! God, we’d have loved to have dirt, all we had was lava gravel with shards of feldspar and uranium mine debris. And damned lucky to have it! Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/38 "2011-11-22T04:04:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > All kinds of reasons. Lower family support for education, lower expectations for their children, family history causing lower ambition, worse nutrition… I am sure you can think of many others. If you’re born poor, there are disadvantages. But they can be overcome. So, you are saying that Hispanic-males-whose-fathers-were-immigrants-from-Central-America-whose-childhood-homes-had-dirt-floors will end up disproportionately poor, in large part because society has failed them? (I can’t think of a better description of society failing an individual then to hear about an American who didn’t receive proper nutrition because his father was a poor immigrant). Also, your explanation of why children of poor immigrants will tend to remain poor sounds like the description of a culture that must, mathematically, become increasingly stratified over time. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/39 "2011-11-22T04:22:33Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > So, you are saying that Hispanic-males-whose-fathers-were-immigrants-from-Central-America-whose-childhood-homes-had-dirt-floors will end up disproportionately poor, in large part because society has failed them? Where did I say “because society has failed them”? > [@](#): > > (I can’t think of a better description of society failing an individual then to hear about an American who didn’t receive proper nutrition because his father was a poor immigrant). Ah so you think the society should provide “proper nutrition” to everyone. What about housing, clothing, and entertainment? Equipment such as computers, cell phones and game consoles? Is that your model of a society that doesn’t “fail” its citizens? > [@](#): > > Also, your explanation of why children of poor immigrants will tend to remain poor sounds like the description of a culture that must, mathematically, become increasingly stratified over time. Only if the society “failed” to teach you mathematics. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686/40 "2011-11-22T04:30:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Where did I say “because society has failed them”? When you said that one of the reasons they were disproportionately poor was poor nutrition. > [@](#): > > Ah so you think the society should provide “proper nutrition” to everyone. What about housing, clothing, and entertainment? Equipment such as computers, cell phones and game consoles? Do you think that society shouldn’t help children receive proper nutrition? Do you think that if we give starving people food, then next thing they’ll be asking for game consoles, so better to let them go hungry? > [@](#): > > Is that your model of a society that doesn’t “fail” its citizens? A society that lets its children become malnourished is pretty much a failure in my eyes, yes. > [@](#): > > Only if the society “failed” to teach you mathematics. Cool, you can teach me mathematics, then. Explain to me how a society in which the poor remain disproportionately poor won’t become increasingly stratified. I look forward to your response. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/problem-is-it-aint-the-1-its-the-5/603686.md?page=3)