# Products of Incest. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 6, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096 "2009-04-06T02:51:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/61 "2009-04-09T17:12:35Z")
Did anyone look through those Roger Ballen photos from Plattland? A number of the people depicted appear to have something wrong with them. ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/62 "2009-04-10T14:15:44Z")
> [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > Did anyone look through those Roger Ballen photos from Plattland? A number of the people depicted appear to have something wrong with them. Yeah, you have to wonder if it’s the people or the photographer. I’m guessing it’s the photog. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/63 "2009-04-10T18:58:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The people depicted as “rat children” all had microencephaly, which is basically “abnormally small head”. This does occur as a birth defect, without any need for deliberate maiming of a child. It is not, however, a sign of being inbred. No its not, but inbreeding can increase its incidence. And for some strange reason, Gujarat has the highest incidence of these. I know there \have been at least two government studies as to why. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/64 "2009-04-11T01:57:45Z")
I think the [Blue Fugates of Appalachia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Fugates#Carriers) were the results of in-breeding ---
**Author:** ![SomeBodyUK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@SomeBodyUK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SomeBodyUK)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/65 "2009-04-11T04:28:57Z")
There is a big issue with first cousin marriages amongst the Pakistani community in UK. An MP has asked for cousin marriages to be banned. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/4441102.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4441102.stm) [http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/nov/16/immigrationpolicy.politics](http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/nov/16/immigrationpolicy.politics) ---
**Author:** ![timB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3e96dc/32.png) [@timB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/timB)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/66 "2009-05-15T17:49:50Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > I guess it might be partly out of morbid curiosity, but I have wondered for some time now, how do children of incest usually turn out? Are they hideously deformed usually? When I was smaller people used to say children of incest were typically retarded. Is that true? > > I’m talking about people **very** closely related having children together. Redneck jokes notwithstanding, I am not talking about cousins here either. Queen Victoria married her first cousin Albert. And all of their children came out alright. > > So what is the usual outcome of **very** close relations? > > Thank you in advance to all who reply:) \<\>\<\<\>\<\>\<\>\<\>\<\<\>\<\>\<\>\<\>\<\>\>\<\>\>\<\>\<\>\<\>\<\>\>\>\<\>\>\<\>\<\>\>\<\>\<\>\>\<\>\<\> ``` well in some case they may end up with learning disablities form ``` damaged lobes of the brain or they end up being intersex/hermapodites (xxy chromazones)along with klingfinders sindrome. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/67 "2009-05-15T18:43:08Z")
> [@SomeBodyUK](#): > > There is a big issue with first cousin marriages amongst the Pakistani community in UK. An MP has asked for cousin marriages to be banned. > > [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/4441102.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4441102.stm) > > [http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/nov/16/immigrationpolicy.politics](http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/nov/16/immigrationpolicy.politics) That’s very interesting. I see those articles are from four years ago, though - I presume no legislation has passed? How did those “conversations” go, if at all? ---
**Author:** ![Rusalka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecd19e/32.png) [@Rusalka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rusalka)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/68 "2009-05-16T07:47:05Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I have two cousins who married. Their mothers were identical twins. Genetically, that’s like someone marrying their half-brother. ---
**Author:** ![Serenata67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/serenata67/32/10646_2.png) [@Serenata67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Serenata67)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/69 "2009-06-28T05:07:02Z")
It’s amazing how many people on SDMB know someone who either participates in or is the issue of incestual relationships… ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/70 "2009-06-28T05:47:46Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Charles Darwin married his first cousin, IIRC, and I don’t remember hearing that any of their kids had any defects or disabilities. _All_ of their kids had defects, and Darwin himself attributed it to having married his cousin. "Darwin was anxious about his children. His 10th and last, Charles the younger, died while a baby; he was “backward in walking & talking, but intelligent and observant”. Henrietta had a digestive illness not unlike that of her father, who was prone to stress-induced vomiting, and took to her bed for years, and he feared that his son Leonard was “rather slow and backward” … while Horace had “attacks, many times a day, of shuddering & gasping & hysterical sobbing, semi-convulsive movements, with much distress of feeling”. His second daughter, Elizabeth, “shivers & makes as many extraordinary grimaces as ever”. George’s problem was an irregular pulse, which hinted at “some deep flaw in his constitution” and, worst of all, his beloved Annie expired at the age of 10, throwing her parents into despair. As he wrote, “When we hear it said that a man carries in his constitution the seeds of an inherited disease there is much literal truth in the expression.” Once he even wrote to a friend that, “We are a wretched family & ought to be exterminated.” [http://esciencenews.com/sources/the.guardian.science/2009/01/19/steve.jones.explores.obscure.chapters.charles.darwins.life](http://esciencenews.com/sources/the.guardian.science/2009/01/19/steve.jones.explores.obscure.chapters.charles.darwins.life) ---
**Author:** ![Student\_Driver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3da27b/32.png) [@Student\_Driver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Student_Driver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/71 "2009-06-28T07:31:53Z")
> [@Serenata67](#): > > It’s amazing how many people on SDMB know someone who either participates in or is the issue of incestual relationships… Hundreds or (low) thousands of users on here, most people become acquaintances with (if not friends with) hundreds of people through their lives, a bare handful of users replying of personal familiarity with such folk in this thread… even if commision of or reproduction from incest is below 1%, with the available user pool on IMDB, the few responses in this thread seem well within the realm of possibility. That said… I worked with a woman who was quite open and proud about having had two children by her father, and it squicked out all of her coworkers. Both of her children had developmental disabilities, and it was assumed that was due to their being products of incest, but she and her mother were both seemingly developmentally disabled to a degree, so it would be hard to claim the incest was responsble. ---
**Author:** ![Indian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@Indian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indian)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/72 "2009-06-28T09:56:19Z")
> [@RoniaBorkason](#): > > I knew a woman a few years ago whose son had married her younger sister(his maternal aunt). They had three children, who were apparently slow but not deformed. The worst part was the taboo - it really broke her heart that her sister and son could do such a thing. aughteray In India also, among certain castes in Tamil Nadu , men marry their elder sister’s daughter ! This system even contnues even today. I do not know much about the deformity part. Marrying first cousins is the norm, still, in some hindu castes and among muslims in southern India .( This was probably devised by elders to prevent division of family property) ---
**Author:** ![Indian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@Indian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indian)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/73 "2009-06-28T10:58:03Z")
#@%&\* Damn my keyboard . :smack: too late to fix the spelling now . ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/74 "2009-06-28T13:49:45Z")
> [@timB](#): > > \<\>\<\<\>\<\>\<\>\<\>\<\<\>\<\>\<\>\<\>\<\>\>\<\>\>\<\>\<\>\<\>\<\>\>\>\<\>\>\<\>\<\>\>\<\>\<\>\>\<\>\<\> > > ``` > well in some case they may end up with learning disablities form > > ``` > > damaged lobes of the brain or they end up being intersex/hermapodites > (xxy chromazones)along with klingfinders sindrome. 1. There are no references to “klingfinders”, “klingfinder” or “klingfinder’s” on the net. Google turns up this thread and four domain registry sites. Was “klingfinders” a typo or a spelling error? Did you mean Klinefelter’s Syndrome? 2. “Syndrome”, not “sindrome”. Also, “chromosomes”, not “chromazones”. Also “hermaphrodite”, not “hermapodite”. 3. The Wikipedia article on Inbreeding does not mention “intersex” or “hermaphrodite”. The Wikipedia article on “Intersexuality” does not mention “inbreeding”. The Wikipedia article on “Klinefelter’s Syndrome” does not mention “inbreeding”. A quick Google search also turns up no link between those terms. Can you link to information that discusses the link between inbreeding and sexual development disorders? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/75 "2009-06-28T19:59:01Z")
[The “Habsburg Jaw”](http://www.antiquesatoz.com/habsburg/habsburg-jaw.htm) The Hapsburg Jaw was an example of inbreeding problems when I went to school. That was ugly. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/76 "2009-06-29T02:49:07Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > _All_ of their kids had defects, and Darwin himself attributed it to having married his cousin… Huh. I did not know that. Ignorance fought - thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/77 "2009-06-29T15:00:31Z")
FTR, Kleinfelter’s has absolutely nothing to do with incest or inbreeding. Nothing whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/78 "2009-06-29T17:11:02Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > _All_ of their kids had defects, and Darwin himself attributed it to having married his cousin. > > "Darwin was anxious about his children. His 10th and last, Charles the younger, died while a baby; he was “backward in walking & talking, but intelligent and observant”. Henrietta had a digestive illness not unlike that of her father, who was prone to stress-induced vomiting, and took to her bed for years, and he feared that his son Leonard was “rather slow and backward” … while Horace had “attacks, many times a day, of shuddering & gasping & hysterical sobbing, semi-convulsive movements, with much distress of feeling”. His second daughter, Elizabeth, “shivers & makes as many extraordinary grimaces as ever”. George’s problem was an irregular pulse, which hinted at “some deep flaw in his constitution” and, worst of all, his beloved Annie expired at the age of 10, throwing her parents into despair. As he wrote, “When we hear it said that a man carries in his constitution the seeds of an inherited disease there is much literal truth in the expression.” Once he even wrote to a friend that, “We are a wretched family & ought to be exterminated.” > > [http://esciencenews.com/sources/the.guardian.science/2009/01/19/steve.jones.explores.obscure.chapters.charles.darwins.life](http://esciencenews.com/sources/the.guardian.science/2009/01/19/steve.jones.explores.obscure.chapters.charles.darwins.life) Hmm. Most of those “defects” seem rather vague and subjective, and if [this page](http://www.aboutdarwin.com/darwin/Children.html) about Darwin’s children is accurate, the ones who survived childhood seem to have gone on to long lives and, in the case of the sons, distinguished careers. (Three out of ten did die in infancy or childhood, but that was about par for the course in a large Victorian family.) Darwin may have been a touch paranoid about his children’s health. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/79 "2009-06-30T00:37:46Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > … the ones who survived childhood seem to have gone on to long lives and, in the case of the sons, distinguished careers.. So did Steven hawking, Abraham Lincoln and John F Kennedy. All this tells us is that having genetic defects doesn’t prevent a person from having a long life and distinguished career. It’s impossible to say to what degree the defects in Darwin’s kids were genetic, but it’s a fact is that the defects existed and were ascribed to inbreeding at the time. So using Darwin’s kids as an example of benign inbreeding is invalid. That was my point. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096/80 "2009-06-30T02:18:29Z")
But _my_ point is that I haven’t yet seen any convincing evidence that the defects _did_ exist, just evidence that Darwin _thought_ they did. There _could_ have been something legitimately wrong with some or all of the children, but it’s equally plausible, based on all of the information that’s been posted so far, that Darwin was simply an over-anxious parent. Symptoms like grimacing or having an irregular pulse are not exactly conclusive signs of genetic problems, and I think there _is_ credible evidence that at least some of Darwin’s concerns were groundless, given that Leonard’s later career does not indicate that he was in any way “slow and backward.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/products-of-incest/492096.md?page=5)