# Prof fired for saying talking snakes should not be taken literally **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 25, 2007, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405 "2007-09-25T09:45:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/1 "2007-09-25T09:45:03Z")
From: [Prof says he was fired over Bible reference](http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770921045) > [@](#): > > A community college instructor in Red Oak claims he was fired after he told his students that the biblical story of Adam and Eve should not be literally interpreted. > > Steve Bitterman, 60, said officials at Southwestern Community College sided with a handful of students who threatened legal action over his remarks in a western civilization class Tuesday. He said he was fired Thursday. > > “I’m just a little bit shocked myself that a college in good standing would back up students who insist that people who have been through college and have a master’s degree, a couple actually, have to teach that there were such things as talking snakes or lose their job,” Bitterman said. Even though Bitterman was fired **two days later** , the college’s president lied through her teeth and stated: > [@Barbara "would I lie?" Crittenden](#): > > “I can assure you that college understands our employees’ free speech rights,” she said. “There was no action taken that violated the First Amendment.” I’m speechless. Make that, I’m _free_ speechless. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/2 "2007-09-25T09:55:15Z")
“threatened legal action” for what exactly? What a bunch of fuckwits. “I can assure you that college understands our employees’ free speech rights,” she said. “There was no action taken that violated the First Amendment.” That statement alone is **highly** suspect in the motive of the firing. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/3 "2007-09-25T09:56:28Z")
[QUOTE=ambushed] From: [Prof says he was fired over Bible reference](http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770921045) Even though Bitterman was fired **two days later** , the college’s president lied through her teeth and stated: I’m speechless. Make that, I’m _free_ speechless. [/QUOTE] The instructor says he was fired because of the talking snakes thing. A lady from the administration says he was fired for some other reason. That is pretty much all we know from that article. Which seems to me to mean we don’t know much of anything. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/4 "2007-09-25T09:57:35Z")
[QUOTE=ParentalAdvisory] “threatened legal action” for what exactly? What a bunch of fuckwits. “I can assure you that college understands our employees’ free speech rights,” she said. “There was no action taken that violated the First Amendment.” That statement alone is **highly** suspect in the motive of the firing. [/QUOTE] Huh what? Why does her saying “There was no action taken that violated the First Amendment,” in and of itself, make you suspect there was an action taken that violated the First Amendment? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/5 "2007-09-25T10:11:51Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] TThat is pretty much all we know from that article. Which seems to me to mean we don’t know much of anything. [/QUOTE] You’re right. That’s very perceptive of you. Why, he could have murdered half the campus on Wednesday! Fuckwit. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/6 "2007-09-25T10:22:01Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Huh what? Why does her saying “There was no action taken that violated the First Amendment,” in and of itself, make you suspect there was an action taken that violated the First Amendment? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Frylock] That is pretty much all we know from that article. Which seems to me to mean we don’t know much of anything. [/QUOTE] Because it’s like firing the only 50 black guys in a group of 500 people and stating: “I can assure you that college understands our employees’ civil rights,” she said. “There was no action taken that violated their civil rights.” It’s just highly suspect is all. And besides, this is the pit. Jumping to conclusions without any facts is great fun. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/7 "2007-09-25T10:33:29Z")
Hmm… the Prof confirms he referred to a “fairy story”, and that students complained his was “denigrating” their religious beliefs. So he might not have been fired for what he said, but the way he said it? If he’d said to a teenager “you dopey fuck, do you seriously believe a bunch of shitty fairy tales taught to you by some in-bred, mouth-breathing paedo-preists?” then that would be grounds for dismissal. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/8 "2007-09-25T10:34:39Z")
From: [Teacher: College fired me for Bible lesson](http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2007/09/22/teacher_college_fired_me_for_bible_lesson/7546/) > [@](#): > > Southwestern President Barbara Crittenden said that the school could not comment on personnel matters. But she denied that Bitterman’s free speech rights had been violated. > > Bitterman taught a Western Civilization course at the Red Oak campus that was telecast to students at the Osceola campus. He said that some Osceola students apparently thought he was denying their religious beliefs. From: [US teacher fired for non-literal bible reading](http://www.theregister.com/2007/09/24/literal_truth/) > [@](#): > > Describing the class, Bitterman said he had put the Hebrew religion on the same plane as any other, with no god being given a particular preference. He said that he encouraged students to look beyond a literal interpretation of what is an “extremely meaningful story”, because he thought a literal reading would miss much of the poetic, metaphoric and symbolic content. … > > “I just thought there was such a thing as academic freedom here,” Bitterman told the Des Moines Register. “From my point of view, what they’re doing is essentially teaching their students very well to function in the eighth century.” ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/9 "2007-09-25T10:41:43Z")
[QUOTE=e-logic] If he’d said to a teenager “you dopey fuck, do you seriously believe a bunch of shitty fairy tales taught to you by some in-bred, mouth-breathing paedo-preists?” then that would be grounds for dismissal. [/QUOTE] That would have been grounds for a standing ovation. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/10 "2007-09-25T10:41:59Z")
[QUOTE=e-logic] So he might not have been fired for what he said, but the way he said it? If he’d said to a teenager “you dopey fuck, do you seriously believe a bunch of shitty fairy tales taught to you by some in-bred, mouth-breathing paedo-preists?” then that would be grounds for dismissal. [/QUOTE] _Huh?_ In a college setting? Why? On what grounds? I can’t wait for you to justify that. Poor taste or poor language is not grounds for dismissal. Why are you trying to defend the school? But seriously, there’s zero reason to think he did anything of the kind. Let’s not invent fantasy straw men just to knock them down. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/11 "2007-09-25T10:42:17Z")
Maybe the dean is a Parselmouth? ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/12 "2007-09-25T10:49:22Z")
Had to look _that_ one up… ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/13 "2007-09-25T10:57:19Z")
[QUOTE=ambushed] _Huh?_ In a college setting? Why? On what grounds? I can’t wait for you to justify that. Poor taste or poor language is not grounds for dismissal. Why are you trying to defend the school? But seriously, there’s zero reason to think he did anything of the kind. Let’s not invent fantasy straw men just to knock them down. [/QUOTE] What all do you get to mock openly without reprisal? Can you mock any supernatural beliefs? Openly ridicule Native American Great Spirit nonsense? Communism? Belief that all populations are genetically equal despite a total absence of evidence for that? I think some decorum is a reasonable requirement, and absence of same can be cause for dismissal. ( I am not saying absence of decorum applies here…I know nothing of this particular case.) ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/14 "2007-09-25T11:06:04Z")
[QUOTE=ambushed] _Huh?_ In a college setting? Why? On what grounds? I can’t wait for you to justify that. Poor taste or poor language is not grounds for dismissal. Why are you trying to defend the school? But seriously, there’s zero reason to think he did anything of the kind. Let’s not invent fantasy straw men just to knock them down. [/QUOTE] Fuck off dipshit… there’s every reason to suspect he did something of the kind, seeing as _he got his ass fired_. The school say it wasn’t for what he said, so there’s no reason to believe the Professor over the school (at this point). And I dunno what kind of shitty school you went to, but poor language is certainly grounds for dismissal - teachers are expected and required to act in a professional manner. Free speech and academic discourse operates within those constraints. You really going to argue otherwise? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/15 "2007-09-25T11:13:31Z")
[QUOTE=Chief Pedant] What all do you get to mock openly without reprisal? [/quote] Anything. **ANYTHING!** That’s what the First Amendment says, ferbob’ssake! And that’s what academic freedom allows, also. [QUOTE=Chief Pedant] Can you mock any supernatural beliefs? [/quote] At the college level, yes! [QUOTE=Chief Pedant] Openly ridicule Native American Great Spirit nonsense? [/quote] At the college level, yes! [QUOTE=Chief Pedant] Communism? [/quote] At the college level, yes! [QUOTE=Chief Pedant] Belief that all populations are genetically equal despite a total absence of evidence for that? [/quote] At the college level, yes! [QUOTE=Chief Pedant] I think some decorum is a reasonable requirement, and absence of same can be cause for dismissal. ( I am not saying absence of decorum applies here…I know nothing of this particular case.) [/QUOTE] Remind me never to seek a professor’s job at – or even _attend_ – a college that _you’re_ the president of! ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/16 "2007-09-25T11:32:58Z")
[QUOTE=e-logic] Fuck off dipshit… there’s every reason to suspect he did something of the kind, seeing as _he got his ass fired_. [/quote] Asshat. A professor says that the story of the Garden of Eden shouldn’t be taken literally, that it’s a fairy tale, then some students threaten the university, then he is fired **two days later** and you actually _believe_ the Podunk Community College president when she says it doesn’t have anything to do with free speech? And you actually are so fucking stupid that you _believe_ her? Damn, you’re gullible! [QUOTE=e-logic] The school say it wasn’t for what he said, so there’s no reason to believe the Professor over the school (at this point). [/quote] You _ **stoopid** _ fucking brainless asswipe! The school did **NOT** “say it wasn’t for what he said”. They said they could not comment on personnel matters, shit for brains! I quote once again: > [@](#): > > Southwestern President Barbara Crittenden said that the school could not comment on personnel matters. It’s painfully obvious _you_ never went to college! [QUOTE=e-logic] And I dunno what kind of shitty school you went to, but poor language is certainly grounds for dismissal - teachers are expected and required to act in a professional manner. Free speech and academic discourse operates within those constraints. You really going to argue otherwise? [/QUOTE] Hell, yes, you ignorant fucktard! \*\*“Free speech … operates within those constraints”?? \*\* Thank Bob I don’t live in Iran with _you!_ I had university profs who used obscenities and university profs who preached literal Genesis in their Chemistry 101 course! Some people complained, and the most the university would permit was for them to drop the course or try to arrange a different prof for their course. ---
**Author:** ![cedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cedman)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/17 "2007-09-25T11:57:24Z")
When I saw the thread title I just HAD to open it because I was incredulous that a college professor would get fired over… HARRY POTTER! Am I the only one? My bad. CedricR. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/18 "2007-09-25T12:08:34Z")
A different perspective: [Students: Teacher’s style, not faith, led to firing](http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070925/NEWS02/709250379/1001/NEWS) I wonder if this was a one-off incident or whether this is a culmination of several separate events? ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/19 "2007-09-25T12:14:16Z")
> [@](#): > > “Sometimes you say something outrageous just to see if you can provoke some discussion. … I can be a little acerbic at times, I don’t deny that,” he said. “A little acerbic”, huh? Translation: “I’m an arogant, self-opinionated tosser”. > [@](#): > > “They really can’t distinguish between a critical assessment of their argument and an attack upon them personally.” “Go pop a prozac” is not a critical assessment of an argument. > [@](#): > > Bitterman said that when he was fired over the phone, he was told it was for teaching religion instead of history, and no mention was made of how he treated students. Well, he would say that wouldn’t he :dubious: Maybe the students were thin-skinned, but it looks like (suprise, suprise) there’s two sides to this story. ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/20 "2007-09-25T12:46:57Z")
[QUOTE=e-logic] …“Go pop a prozac” is not a critical assessment of an argument… [/QUOTE] Is too. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405.md?page=2)