# Prof fired for saying talking snakes should not be taken literally **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 25, 2007, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405 "2007-09-25T09:45:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jamdon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@jamdon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jamdon)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/21 "2007-09-25T13:07:46Z")
Perhaps Steve can find another job terrorising Corey Masterson and Nerdlinger a la “School of Hard Knockers” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/22 "2007-09-25T13:21:10Z")
I thought this part was the most telling part of the most recent article: > [@](#): > > Some part-time community college professors in other parts of the state said the Southwestern situation does not surprise them. One referred to their lives as “adjunct hell.” > > James Ralston, a math instructor at Hawkeye Community College in Waterloo, said he has been fired twice for political reasons or false accusations from students. > > “All adjunct teachers are under the same pressure that they cannot teach, because if they offend, no matter how crazy the students are, they are going to be fired,” he said. “It’s a huge problem.” I don’t think there is any justifiable requirement for a community college to keep a non-tenured adjunct professor who is combative or insulting to his students. But my read so far is that the teacher was trying to be provocative in order to generate some debate or discussion (the “fairy tale” comment seems not to be one that would withstand academic rigor), just so happened he had a classroom full of people waiting to be offended, and things spun out of control from there. If the teacher had gotten good reviews in the past, bowing to the pressure of a small group of community college students who can’t believe that they’d be required to think in new ways (gasp!) in an academic setting is a pretty good example of administrative cowardice. If they’re apparently willing to fire a math professor for “political reasons,” one has got to take the administration’s claims with a big grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/23 "2007-09-25T14:10:15Z")
I have been to Red Oak. It is a tiny hick town in the middle of nowhere, and of no consequence. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/24 "2007-09-25T14:20:07Z")
[QUOTE=ambushed] Anything. **ANYTHING!** That’s what the First Amendment says, ferbob’ssake! And that’s what academic freedom allows, also.At the college level, yes!At the college level, yes!At the college level, yes!At the college level, yes!Remind me never to seek a professor’s job at – or even _attend_ – a college that _you’re_ the president of! [/QUOTE] Well it would certainly save me the bother of firing a fool so ignorant he thinks the First Amendment means that anything can be said anytime in any context with any degree of vulgarity or impropriety. Or getting rid of a “student” so witless he thinks the anarchic chaos of an unrestricted pooling of ignorance is indistinguishable from “academic freedom.” The only environment which promotes an effective exchange of ideas so that speech becomes Free Speech sets _a priori_ constraints in order that it be coherent Speech. It is otherwise the babbling of twits and the privileged voices drowning out the weak. There are occasions when those constraints are non-existent, and appropriately so; those occasions are defined in advance. Where those constraints are defined in advance, and someone like you ignores 'em, I would enjoy having your sorry a$$ removed from the premises and get you to a school more inclined to cater to rude loudmouths. Or let you just go holler at the world as it passes by in Hyde Park. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/25 "2007-09-25T14:30:32Z")
The lecture was transmitted by video to another campus? How long before we start seeing it on YouTube, I wonder? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/26 "2007-09-25T15:52:46Z")
I once took a course called History of the Bible at a fairly well-known univeristy in a large city. All the Christians dropped out by class three. Never found out why, but there was some light gasping when they found out that… gulp… the Bible was written – and _edited_ by multiple human beings! As crap as _The DaVinci Code_ was, at the very least it pointed out to some people, the kind of people who forward Spam chain letters and can’t find Iraq on a map, that the Bible did not appear in its present form(s) after being beamed down from the clouds. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/27 "2007-09-25T15:55:06Z")
[QUOTE=Chief Pedant] Belief that all populations are genetically equal despite a total absence of evidence for that? [/QUOTE] Huh? On what are you basing the absence of evidence assertion? Define “genetically equal,” while you’re at it, please. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/28 "2007-09-25T15:58:35Z")
[QUOTE=Cat Fight] I once took a course called History of the Bible at a fairly well-known univeristy in a large city. All the Christians dropped out by class three. Never found out why, but there was some light gasping when they found out that… gulp… the Bible was written – and _edited_ by multiple human beings! [/QUOTE] I wonder how they’ll react when they discover the 1611 KJV they’re using is an edited version from a few years later. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/29 "2007-09-25T16:14:23Z")
[QUOTE=ambushed] Thank Bob I don’t live in Iran with _you!_ [/QUOTE] You’re welcome ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/30 "2007-09-25T16:27:03Z")
[QUOTE=Chief Pedant] Well it would certainly save me the bother of firing a fool so ignorant he thinks the First Amendment means that anything can be said anytime in any context with any degree of vulgarity or impropriety. [/quote] Cite, please, for the courts’ acceptance of your theory that the First Amendment doesn’t protect vulgar or improper speech. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/31 "2007-09-25T16:31:31Z")
[QUOTE=ambushed] Asshat. (snip) And you actually are so fucking stupid (snip) You _ **stoopid** _ fucking brainless asswipe! (snip) shit for brains! (snip) Hell, yes, you ignorant fucktard! [/QUOTE] I am afraid I am not equal to the intellectual pressures of the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_in\_second\_hand\_clothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9d8465/32.png) [@wolf\_in\_second\_hand\_clothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_in_second_hand_clothing)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/32 "2007-09-25T16:42:53Z")
This doesn’t surprise me one bit. I go to a university in Iowa, and either last year or the year before, almost the entirety of our scientific faculty signed a letter to the school newspaper stating that intelligent design and creationism had absolutely no scientific basis and that the prospect of “teaching both sides and letting the students decide” was preposterous and a complete waste of time. That, of course, resulted in a bunch of people writing in to whine about how they didn’t know why it was “necessary for all these professors to attack their religion”, and all the other persecution of Christians and War on Christmas bullshit that they like to drag out. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/33 "2007-09-25T17:04:34Z")
Pardon this furriner, but is the first amendment an issue here? It’s my understanding that the goverment isn’t allowed to stop free speech, but when a person signs a contract for employment, there can be any kind of rules and regulations regarding “free speech”? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/34 "2007-09-25T17:10:46Z")
Community College Adjunct Prof is NOT EQUAL to tenured research professor. Academic Freedom is first about the ability to research what you please, then about the ability to teach what may be politically incorrect or unpopular. However, the community college typically gets cash based on enrollments (and pays its instructors based on the same). If the prof is an asshole, that is going to hit the bottom line. Firing an asshole is the President’s job. Keeping an asshole from getting tenure is also important, since once tenured it is much harder to dump the assholes. This guy sounds like an asshole (based on a whoppin’ one article with student comments). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/35 "2007-09-25T17:13:07Z")
The First Amendment does not protect professors who insult their students (when done in a classroom setting). Now, we can argue about whether this guy did indeed insult his students, but a college (even a state college) can fire a professor over “improper speech” or “profane speech”, if it violates the college’s teaching code. I’m sure this college has such a code, and the professor might (or might not) win a lawsuit against them if it can be shown in court that no violation took place. But just screaming “First Amendment” without knowing all the facts is plain stooopid. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/36 "2007-09-25T17:17:24Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Cite, please, for the courts’ acceptance of your theory that the First Amendment doesn’t protect vulgar or improper speech. [/QUOTE] It’s more complicated. You left off “…in the workplace”. If the guy stood on a street corner and said “All Christians are blithering idiots”, the first amendment protects him. If he says this in a classroom, it doesn’t necessarily protect him. Context, **RTF** , context. That was the key part of **CP** ’s post you seem to be ignoring-- “anytime in any context”. What’s so hard to understand about that? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/37 "2007-09-25T17:28:30Z")
[QUOTE=Charlie Tan] Pardon this furriner, but is the first amendment an issue here? It’s my understanding that the goverment isn’t allowed to stop free speech, but when a person signs a contract for employment, there can be any kind of rules and regulations regarding “free speech”? [/QUOTE] The difference being here is that the community college is run by the state, and so can be seen as the government acting. The same can also apply to private employers if they create a legitimate expectation that they will respect an employees freedom of speech, and then withdraw that protection. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/38 "2007-09-25T17:36:09Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Cite, please, for the courts’ acceptance of your theory that the First Amendment doesn’t protect vulgar or improper speech. [/QUOTE] _Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire_, 315 U.S. 568 (1942). If words are deem so vulgar or improper as to provoke violent actions by others, they are not protected speech. It is, IMHO, an utterly flawed decision, but it is there; its the “fighting words” exemption. Now, under \*Cohen v. California \*, 403 U.S. 15 (1971) (“fuck the draft”) the words have to be directed at a person. Of course, this is a different situation here - it is at work, where the standard is that any restriction on free speech has to be related to the job description in an acceptable way. You can’t fire someone for going on a stop the war rally in their spare time from being a (state) university professor, but you can fire them for teaching politics in a physics class, for example. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/39 "2007-09-25T17:55:22Z")
Based on the thread title, I was expecting this story to be about a **Bible** college. For this to happen – just for the **negative student reaction** to happen, let alone the firing – at a **community** college is bizarrely disturbing. > [@Algher](#): > > This guy sounds like an asshole (based on a whoppin’ one article with student comments). :dubious: Eh? All he said was: > [@](#): > > “I put the Hebrew religion on the same plane as any other religion. Their god wasn’t given any more credibility than any other god,” Bitterman said. “I told them it was an extremely meaningful story, but you had to see it in a poetic, metaphoric or symbolic sense, that if you took it literally, that you were going to miss a whole lot of meaning there.” > > Bitterman said called the story of Adam and Eve a “fairy tale” in a conversation with a student after the class and was told the students had threatened to see an attorney. He declined to identify any of the students in the class. No, sir, **Bitterman** ain’t the asshole in this story! ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405/40 "2007-09-25T18:07:40Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Based on the thread title, I was expecting this story to be about a **Bible** college. For this to happen – just for the **negative student reaction** to happen, let alone the firing – at a **community** college is bizarrely disturbing. :dubious: Eh? All he said was: No, sir, **Bitterman** ain’t the asshole in this story! [/QUOTE] Check out the other article: > [@](#): > > Casey Overton, 19, who also was in the Osceola classroom, said Bitterman spoke “very crudely and made us feel like crap.” > > “I think he was trying to start a debate, but it came across as insulting and offended everybody,” Overton said. “After some of the comments he made, I didn’t expect him to be fired, but I’m kind of glad he’s gone. There’s no way I could have finished the class.” and > [@](#): > > …I can be a little acerbic at times, I don’t deny that… [http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070925/NEWS02/709250379/1001/NEWS](http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070925/NEWS02/709250379/1001/NEWS) Again, based on the sparse anecdotal comments, it sounds like the guy was a dick in the classroom. Some students complained that he was a dick in the classroom, and based on that they fired him. Yes, it was compounded by the fact that he was attacking their religion (and telling a student that she should take a pharmaceutical to compensate for her reaction to his attack). I will also state that the students are probably whiny little bitches as well. I had plenty of classes where the instructor decided to pick fights over issues to create a debate - but that is different from telling people what to believe in a western civ class. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-fired-for-saying-talking-snakes-should-not-be-taken-literally/420405.md?page=3)