# Prof Hawking says God did not create Universe **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 2, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433 "2010-09-02T21:54:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/21 "2010-09-03T16:03:45Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > > [@yanceylebeef](#): > > > > “If Dr. Hawkings is correct and science does not need God, why does Schrodinger’s cat always die, which suggests that some undefined observer interferes with each and every instance of the experiment. If not God, then who else is interfering in the experiment? Who else would be interested in the outcome of the cat? And if God is watching, then he exists, and His watching is not mere frivolity.” > > _blink_ > > _blink_ > > _blink_ > > _blink_ > > huh? Yep. My response exactly. He is an old high school friend. Was pretty smart if I remember correctly, but other than facebook I haven’t talked to him since graduation. I’m beyond baffled at these people, I’m beginning to get louvered. ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/22 "2010-09-03T16:45:05Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > > [@cochrane](#): > > > > Sure, he does. Who do you think kills all those kittens when someone masturbates? > > Dang, and all this time I’ve been killing kittens, thinking it was – pleasing – to God. HEY!!! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/23 "2010-09-03T16:52:51Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Listening to some of Hawkins I just know he is looking at God right in the eye but just not seeing him, really very sad, but if god opens his eyes, WOW that would be great. > [@Monkey\_Chews](#): > > God’s eyes are closed? He should totally open them. Wow! How can we get him to open his eyes to Hawkins? On the fifth day, Hawking created God. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/24 "2010-09-03T17:46:41Z")
> [@Engywook](#): > > I ask because one definition of God is simply an uncaused first cause of the universe. Not in the context of these discussions, it isn’t. It’s fine to have your own personal definitions for things, but it’s not realistic to expect that any significant number of people are using the word “God” to mean “basic physic principle with no intelligence or personality attached.”. If you’re going to define it so broadly, then of course there’s a God, but you haven’t stated anything meaningful, because you’ve just extended the meaning of the word to cover everything. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/25 "2010-09-03T18:21:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Mijin](#): > > > > OTOH they described it as Hawking “changing his mind” and now saying that god is _not_ necessary. They made it sound like he was a believer who has now become an atheist; I don’t think this is true. > > He at one point hid his atheism and expressed some support for religion, both to avoid offending his first wife and out of fear of the hatred of believers. He came out as a long time atheist a while back. If you’re right about these two reasons, that’s pretty intellectually damning, for a scientist. Nobody’s opinion, neither his wife’s nor believers’, should be relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/26 "2010-09-04T03:12:26Z")
> [@yanceylebeef](#): > > Yep. My response exactly. He is an old high school friend. Was pretty smart if I remember correctly, but other than facebook I haven’t talked to him since graduation. > > I’m beyond baffled at these people, I’m beginning to get louvered. Well, if the argument seems daft, it’s just because you haven’t written it up formally. Here, I’ll try: 1. The Schrodinger’s Cat thought experiment has actually been done and the cat always dies. That’s my understanding anyway. 2. Erm, did I mention that God hates cats? 3. Therefore, God exists Take that, Dawkins! ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/27 "2010-09-04T05:05:35Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > > [@Engywook](#): > > > > I ask because one definition of God is simply an uncaused first cause of the universe. > > If you’re going to define it so broadly, then of course there’s a God, but you haven’t stated anything meaningful, because you’ve just extended the meaning of the word to cover everything. That’s right, TimeWinder…feel the Zen. God covers everything. We are all one. We are all god. But seriously, I do get Engywook’s point. I think that one of the things Hawkins said was holding him back from declaring there is no God was the idea of there being no ‘beginning’. A ‘beginning’ seemed to affirm god…if the laws of the universe is and always was, then there is no need to place a ‘god’ at the beginning to set things off. I don’t think Engywook is saying that ‘god is everything’ I think Engywook is saying that the ‘beginning’ is God. (I mean, for the sake of argument…I don’t mean to actually speak for Engywook) Umm, I’m nervous because I think I may have just confused myself trying to understand things a smidge over my head. I will link to [an article](http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9404/bigbang.html)\* that I read that is helping me to understand better. \*link goes to christian website. I am not endorsing any christianity ideas or religious ideas, just trying to make a point. ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/28 "2010-09-04T05:16:17Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > If you’re right about these two reasons, that’s pretty intellectually damning, for a scientist. Nobody’s opinion, neither his wife’s nor believers’, should be relevant. That’s fairly easy to say, from the outside. But I’d like to see a cite for the original claim. My understanding was that Hawking used “God” in a metaphorical sense, more akin to Pantheism than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/29 "2010-09-04T05:18:57Z")
Missed the edit window. Wanted to say oops about the spelling. I mixed Dawkins with Hawking in my head and spelled it Hawkins. My mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/30 "2010-09-04T13:23:15Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > But seriously, I do get Engywook’s point. I think that one of the things Hawkins said was holding him back from declaring there is no God was the idea of there being no ‘beginning’. A ‘beginning’ seemed to affirm god…if the laws of the universe is and always was, then there is no need to place a ‘god’ at the beginning to set things off. I don’t think Engywook is saying that ‘god is everything’ I think Engywook is saying that the ‘beginning’ is God. (I mean, for the sake of argument…I don’t mean to actually speak for Engywook) Well, I’m going to advocate for **TimeWinder** now. It sounds like you’ve got **Engywook** ’s point, but not **TimeWinder** ’s. The thing with “uncaused cause” is, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that god is whatever the uncaused cause is, even if that is a law of gravity. Then say that god is sentient, omnibenevolent, omniscient etc. It’s like the classic “god is love” analogy, and then saying “Do you not believe that love exists?”. It’s not true to say that Hawking has actually proved there’s a god by finding a first cause. As that first cause has none of the properties usually ascribed to god, he has removed a key gap in which some believe god is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/31 "2010-09-04T18:38:37Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well, I’m going to advocate for **TimeWinder** now. > > It sounds like you’ve got **Engywook** ’s point, but not **TimeWinder** ’s. > > The thing with “uncaused cause” is, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that god is whatever the uncaused cause is, even if that is a law of gravity. Then say that god is sentient, omnibenevolent, omniscient etc. > It’s like the classic “god is love” analogy, and then saying “Do you not believe that love exists?”. > > It’s not true to say that Hawking has actually proved there’s a god by finding a first cause. As that first cause has none of the properties usually ascribed to god, he has removed a key gap in which some believe god is necessary. Right. Thanks for breaking that down nice and plain. I understand and agree. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/32 "2010-09-04T19:08:55Z")
The coverage of this has been appallingly bad. All the headlines I’ve seen, including this thread’s, have misstated Hawking’s positions, relative to his quotes in the stories. As far as I can see from the quotes (old and new), Hawking never said there _was_ a Creator God, nor has he now said there _isn’t_. Nor has he really reversed his prior position. My understanding is that he had previously said a CG was _not incompatible_ with leading physics theories; now he’s said a CG is _not required_. Those are very different, and far less audacious, statements than have been attributed to him in headlines. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/33 "2010-09-04T19:27:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@kanicbird](#): > > > > Listening to some of Hawkins I just know he is looking at God right in the eye but just not seeing him, really very sad, but if god opens his eyes, WOW that would be great. > > > [@Monkey\_Chews](#): > > > > God’s eyes are closed? He should totally open them. Wow! How can we get him to open his eyes to Hawkins? > > On the fifth day, Hawking created God. Or at least a non-Newtonian law that allows his dimension to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/34 "2010-09-04T19:34:23Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > The coverage of this has been appallingly bad. All the headlines I’ve seen, including this thread’s, have misstated Hawking’s positions, relative to his quotes in the stories. > > As far as I can see from the quotes (old and new), Hawking never said there _was_ a Creator God, nor has he now said there _isn’t_. Nor has he really reversed his prior position. > > My understanding is that he had previously said a CG was _not incompatible_ with leading physics theories; now he’s said a CG is _not required_. Those are very different, and far less audacious, statements than have been attributed to him in headlines. I noticed that too. In [this article](http://colombiareports.com/opinion/disinformation/11639-didinformation-hawking-persona-non-grata-ig.html), (titled ‘Disinformation’, ha) the quote is \*\*“God didn’t create the universe - it was actually a result of the inevitable laws of physics” \*\* It is sketchy as hell, how they come up with that quote. You can see that his new book is not quoted directly to get that quote. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/35 "2010-09-04T19:52:44Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > The coverage of this has been appallingly bad. All the headlines I’ve seen, including this thread’s, have misstated Hawking’s positions, relative to his quotes in the stories. Again, my bad: I copied the headline from a news article and should really have put it in speech marks. I’m aware that they’ve misstated his position here, and also taken the opportunity to misstate what he’s said in the past. All of which obscures the point that Hawking and the chap who co-wrote the book are apparently trying to make. It seems they believe they’re on to something with philosophical implications, but I’m not getting a very clear picture from the news reports. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/36 "2010-09-04T20:31:51Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > > [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > > > But seriously, I do get Engywook’s point. I think that one of the things Hawkins said was holding him back from declaring there is no God was the idea of there being no ‘beginning’. A ‘beginning’ seemed to affirm god…if the laws of the universe is and always was, then there is no need to place a ‘god’ at the beginning to set things off. I don’t think Engywook is saying that ‘god is everything’ I think Engywook is saying that the ‘beginning’ is God. (I mean, for the sake of argument…I don’t mean to actually speak for Engywook) > > Well, I’m going to advocate for **TimeWinder** now. > > It sounds like you’ve got **Engywook** ’s point, but not **TimeWinder** ’s. > > The thing with “uncaused cause” is, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that god is whatever the uncaused cause is, even if that is a law of gravity. Then say that god is sentient, omnibenevolent, omniscient etc. > It’s like the classic “god is love” analogy, and then saying “Do you not believe that love exists?”. > > It’s not true to say that Hawking has actually proved there’s a god by finding a first cause. As that first cause has none of the properties usually ascribed to god, he has removed a key gap in which some believe god is necessary. Actually there is an option that always gets left out of these discussions. That option is that whatever came before this universe was not causal. There may be no first cause. We know the laws of physics go back to the Big Bang. We have no clue what happened before that and we have no reason to assume that the Big Bang was caused because we have no reason to assume that whatever (if anything) existed before the Big Bang followed causal rules. Slee ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/37 "2010-09-04T21:14:46Z")
It’s a publicity stunt helped by ignorant reporters. It’s not like Hawking was next in line to be Pope or Panchen Lama. Jokes asides, I’d like to know what he really said about gravitation. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/38 "2010-09-04T23:32:55Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > OTOH they described it as Hawking “changing his mind” and now saying that god is _not_ necessary. They made it sound like he was a believer who has now become an atheist; I don’t think this is true. It is true. In \*A Brief History of Time \*he was of the opinion that a God was necessary. He stated this clearly. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/39 "2010-09-04T23:50:33Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > In \*A Brief History of Time \*he was of the opinion that a God was necessary. He stated this clearly. Got a cite? It’s been a while since I read it, but as I recall all his most expansive references were open to interpretations (of the word “God”) akin to those used by Einstein, which Hawking himself later explained, > [@Stephen Hawking](#): > > If you believe in science, like I do, you believe that there are certain laws that are always obeyed. If you like, you can say the laws are the work of God, but that is more a definition of God than a proof of his existence. More direct references to a Creator God in _A Brief History of Time_ (as found online) said things like, > [@Stephen Hawking](#): > > One can imagine that God created the universe at literally any time in the past. On the other hand, if the universe is expanding, there may be physical reasons why there had to be a beginning. One could imagine that God created the universe at the instant of the big bang, or even afterwards in just such a way as to make it look as though there had been a big bang, but it would be meaningless to suppose that it was created before the big bang. An expanding universe does not preclude a creator, but it does place limits on when he might have carried out his job! and, > [@Stephen Hawking](#): > > With the success of scientific theories in describing events, most people have come to believe that God allows the universe to evolve according to a set of laws and does not intervene in the universe to break these laws. However, the laws do not tell us what the universe should have looked like when it started – it would still be up to God to wind up the clockwork and choose how to start it off. So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator? “One could imagine” and “we could suppose” are hardly clear statements of necessity. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2010, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433/40 "2010-09-05T01:44:53Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > > [@Candyman74](#): > > > > In \*A Brief History of Time \*he was of the opinion that a God was necessary. He stated this clearly. > > Got a cite? It’s been a while since I read it, but as I recall all his most expansive references were open to interpretations (of the word “God”) akin to those used by Einstein, which Hawking himself later explained, > > More direct references to a Creator God in _A Brief History of Time_ (as found online) said things like, > > and, > > > [@Stephen Hawking](#): > > > > With the success of scientific theories in describing events, most people have come to believe that God allows the universe to evolve according to a set of laws and does not intervene in the universe to break these laws. However, the laws do not tell us what the universe should have looked like when it started – it would still be up to God to wind up the clockwork and choose how to start it off. So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator? > > “One could imagine” and “we could suppose” are hardly clear statements of necessity. Fair enough; I remember coming away with an impression of a stronger stance - but it’s a long time since I read it (how old is it now? 15 years or so?). That’s a\* long\* way from his current position as recently reported, though. I really should pick up his latest book. I’m _sure_ I remember him saying that God was necessary in that book. Memory can play tricks, I guess. I recall a section where he discusses how scientists have no answer to the “why” of the Big Bang and that God was the only explanation they had (in absence of an actual explanation). You’ve made me want to go read the book again, now! 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prof-hawking-says-god-did-not-create-universe/552433.md?page=3)